Kansas Vs. Missouri And The Matchup At The Four Spot
by Owen on Feb 3, 2012 10:00 AM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk Basketball 2011-12
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Looking ahead to this weekends Border War there are a variety of interesting matchups. One to look at might be the how both sets of guards handle the other sides ability to create dribble penetration. Tyshawn Taylor can get into the lane as well as anyone and Missouri has a few options that provide a very high level of quickness on the perimeter.
Another area to look might be the Missouri zone defense. Coach Haith has effectively utilized a zone on a few occasions this year and it has been suggested that he might go that route against a Kansas team that has had their struggles in that department.
If you had to circle one though, it might be the matchup at the four spot. It's a matchup that could create mismatches on both ends and right now the question on everyone's mind is how is each team going to handle it.
"One of their strengths is playing Kim (English) at the four. They have a lot of strengths, but that is one of their biggest."
"They have made a perimeter guy a four man, and how many uncontested looks has he gotten this year because a big can't get to him? - Bill Self
Without question that has to be one of the chief concerns if you're a Jayhawk fan. On the defensive end you have to defend English with either Robinson or Withey. Do you pull Withey away from the basket and basically eliminate one of your better shot blockers or do you put Robinson on English and risk getting your best player in foul trouble if he can't keep English in front of him?
In past years when Mike Anderson was the coach Kansas was able to give Missouri the perimeter in many cases because the Tigers were fairly miserable in the half court set. Kim English was one of those players that was very athletic but probably didn't benefit offensively from that approach. Now that they actually have a semblance of something in the half court, English is averaging 14+ per game while shooting nearly 50% from the three point line.
Now if you flip the coin here you have the same questions facing Missouri. Yes Kim English has at times done well against players with more size, but Thomas Robinson is a dynamic player and Jeff Withey has a good half foot on him. Who does English defend? Kansas needs to identify that and attack it.
"I don't know exactly what they are going to try to do, but they are going to play small the majority of the time except for when they go big off the bench."
Going big off the bench means Steve Moore and if that happen I think we're talking about a situation on both ends where it is advantage to Kansas.
So what we're asking here is who dictates the game? Does Kansas feed the interior and control the game from that aspect forcing Haith to make an adjustment? Or does Kim English put Kansas in a tough position either through a mismatch or foul trouble and force Kansas to look to a rather thin bench for help?
As much as the Pressey v Taylor matchup brings to the table, this is the one to watch early on in the game to see how both coaches approach a unique situation.
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I actually thought Withey did a pretty good job against Royce White
If Withey could have stayed out of foul trouble, I think the Iowa State game would have been different. He was doing a good job on White. I’m sure that they’ll run English through more screens than Iowa State did for White, but I still like Withey on English as long as we cut out the moving screen fouls.
it really can't be withey
english takes the vast majority of his shots from beyond the arc or as 2 point jumpers. That totally negates all of Withey’s advantages and he’s too slow to keep up with him. I’d expect it to be Releford at least to start.
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
I like that idea (Releford),
but then who are Withey and Robinson going to guard?
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 3, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly...
In theory, if English was actually playing his correct position, Releford would guard him. But if we put Releford on him, then that leaves Thomas on Matt Pressey.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 3, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
I assumed Releford would be on Denmon
TT: Phil Pressey
EJ: Matt Pressey
JW: Kim English
TRob: Ricardo Ratliffe
I don’t think we can risk putting Robinson out on the perimeter on defense.
Why not?
He’s probably twice as fast and agile as Withey. And while Ratliffe has been extremely good this year, his primary skill is getting a hook off quickly…Withey’s length should bother him.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 3, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
I think Robinson is far more valuable to the team so foul trouble for him is a greater risk
And I don’t think anyone is blocking Ratliffe’s little hook shot, so Withey’s ability in that area is kind of negated.
Plus, if I have to choose only one, I’d rather have Robinson down low to clean up the defensive glass than Withey.
Withey would never be able to keep up with English
You can’t just let a guy that’s shooting 50% from three run loose, which would essentially be what would happen if you put Withey on him. I believe that T-Rob is smart enough to avoid foul trouble, and letting English get by him to the rack is a lot better than letting him run free for threes. Especially since Withey will then be waiting for him.
by 2.1 seconds left on Feb 3, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
English takes half of his shots from 3, and he's assisted on 92% of those
I take that to mean that they’re running him through a bunch of interior screens and then he pops to the perimeter and catches and shoots. I don’t imagine either of our big guys (or Young or Teahan) will be able to keep up with that, so I’m thinking more in terms of who I want back by the rim where we can retain the match up advantage. To me, Robinson has the bigger advantage there so I want him back with Ratliffe and I’ll let Withey guard English loosely.
I'd look for more of Young and Wesley
chasing them all over the place, and TRob & Withey being more of a tandem act inside. I seem to remember that being a bit of the case in a similar sort of matchup earlier in the year. Coach Self said it just wasn’t the sort of game that was suited to Withey, though he has developed tons since then.
Ratliffe's little hook shot is kind of crazy
but it will be harder to throw it up over a guy 4 inches taller who can block him if he isn’t perfect. In the same sense, none of their guys can block TRob or Withey.
Speaking of hook shots, Withey’s been getting a good one. It looks awkward but he’s been getting it to go in.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
That was my thought too
English has played the 4 fairly well this year. He’s what, 6’6" so he is really short for the spot but he’s quick and has a good shot. I don’t know if Withey can keep up with him. TRob I think has the athleticism combined with his size to keep English from going off. Put Withey on Ratliffe and he suddenly has a guy that is 4 inches taller than him and a great shot blocker in his face all the time.
I think we win this game but it will be tough at MU and could depend on fouls. If Withey or TRob get into foul trouble then we will have issues. I also think if we can get out to an early lead that will shut up the fans pretty quick.
MU has played well this year, its going to be a good game. I’ll admit going into the season I didn’t think MU would be as good as they have been but they have come together pretty well. Both teams are going to be up for this one.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
I think
we’re going to see a lot of no Withey.
Taylor
Johnson
Teahan (or Young)
Releford
Robinson
No matter how you slice it though there’s going to be a matchup problem
Id probably put Johnson on Pressey (the good one) , Taylor on Denmon and Releford on English and then try to get by everywhere else
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
It certainly makes us match up better on defense
I worry that a four-guard (or three guards plus Young) lineup lets Missouri sag in on Robinson so that our game hinges on whether we make 3-pointers.
My instinct is that we’re fundamentally sound enough on defense to allow a mismatch there in order to exploit the mismatch on offense, but I agree it’s a tough call. It’ll be interesting to see what Self does tomorrow.
Agreed on the sagging thing
but I’m guessing they’d sag either way. Who knows. This is one of the rare times I’m glad I’m not HCBS.
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
I don't envy the decisions he has to make
But I’m awfully glad we have him to make them
by KSinDC on Feb 3, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I just don't see HCBS deviating from his norm like that
Self strikes me as a guy that will try to force MU to adjust to him before the other way around. I don’t see us going small unless we get down by 10+ points. I will agree, though, that we should see a lot of KY- technically a big this year, but can guard perimeter guys.
But I expect Withey to get his regular minutes, unless he gets into foul trouble.
R.I.P. DOM
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Feb 3, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
And Young has that frentic energy
that is so suited to chasing guys around the court.
Sorry, but I disagree.
I think we will see a good deal of Withey, unless of course he gets in foul trouble early. Having Withey and Robinson both in there on offense gives us a big advantage.
KSU was able to take it to Missouri by being very physical with them and pushing them around in the paint and getting second-chance buckets. We are not as deep in the post as KSU, but with both Robnison and Withey in there we should be able to wreak some pretty serious havok. It’s a risky strategy, because we don’t have much depth, but neither does Missouri and if we are attacking in the paint, we should get more fouls on their bigs than we get on our’s.
That’s what I think will be Bill Self’s plan A.
Yes, we have to think about
how they’re going to match up against US rather than how we match up against them.
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
If the game's at AFH, I would agree with you,
but it’s not. I know things should be equal no matter the venue, but they won’t be. We’re gonna have to adjust to them eventually.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Only issue with that is I think it hurts us to not have Withey out there
Withey is a big boy that takes up the middle, he can get rebounds, block shots, and has been scoring lately. I don’t see Teahan adding a lot of points or rebounds.
If we can get EJ, Releford, or Teahan to have a good game scoring and TRob, Withey, and Taylor all play how they have then we can do well. It’s just when we get little to no production from those three that we struggle.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
What??? No, no, no...
I agree that Withey did a decent job on White, but you don’t have to respect White’s jumpshot, let alone White from three. That’s just about all English does.
Withey will guard Ratliffe or Moore, and no one else.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 3, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
Withy will be on Ratlife or Moore always. T-Rob will be on English mostly. Releford on Denmon mostly. It puts a great deal of pressure on Withey to rebound but I still see this as our best match-up. If you take Withey out of the middle to gaurd anyone other than Ratliffe or Moore, that totally negates Withey’s talents. Might as well start Young rather than do that and I don’t think Bill Self will go there unless Withey gets in foul trouble early.
It is a veery interesting match-up though.
I said it in another thread...
But theone thing I like about this for us is that we’re at least able to match them if needed. If they’re too quick for our traditional lineup, we have the ability to go small.
Tyshawn
EJ
Teahan
Releford
Robinson/Withey
or
Tyshawn
EJ
Releford
Young/Wesley
Robinson/Withey
I don’t love either lineup, but we’ve played those lineups plenty and I’m comfortable with either.
If they can’t match our size and strength, their only option is to go to Steve Moore, which
A) Means they have to play Steve Moore
B) Means they’ve taken on of their primary guards off the floor.
I really hope this KU team has learned by now that
1. They are really really good when they aren’t forcing a 3 every time they get the ball
2. They are really really bad when they think a 3 is the only legal shot in basketball
by jhwk316 on Feb 3, 2012 11:38 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
forcing or accepting the invitation for
It’s sort of like when KU had the ball late in MM’s last game. Pinkie put single coverage out wide, and everyone else in the box, just daring us to throw the ball (stop the clock with an incomplete pass). And we obliged – and lost. If we are suckered into taking the shot that they want us to take vs. working for the shots that we want, it could be a really ugly game.
We have good help defense
But T-Rob on English and force them into a zone at their end. Look what we did to the Baylor zone.
I always drink the Kool-Aid
Going for #8 in a row!
I think so too...
If we’re not playing Withey (as is suggested above), then we’re giving up one of our biggest advantages. I’d like to think that won’t be the case.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 3, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
tallest advantage
TT & TRob are easily the biggest, bestest advangtage.
My question would be "can Withey bother English enough without getting exposed?"
If I think the answer is yes, then I have Withey on English to start, with orders to back off, be ready to get a hand in his face quickly when necessary. If MU’s plan is to win with English shooting 3 after 3, then let them try it. English is going to get his shots no matter which big man is guarding him, so might as well have Withey be able to sag a bit to help the rest of the defense and hope that having a 7-footer flying at him will bother English enough. Add to that the extra defense English will have to exert trying to guard either TRob or Withey, hopefully putting English in foul trouble as well.
If that doesn’t seem plausible or English is scoring too much in the early going, then switch to TRob to see if that changes anything, then go to Young, about the time Young would be giving one of those guys a spell. If that still isn’t enough to contain English, then rotate in one of the guards and have Releford see what he can do. Problem is, that extra guard is Teahan or Tharpe, who have the ability but haven’t shown it with much consistency, plus it further limits the backcourt subs.
Last ditch effort, Releford stays on English, but TRob/Withey guard the 5 and the least-dangerous little guy.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 3, 2012 4:34 PM CST reply actions
Withey's most important contribution is his shot-blocking and
shot-altering defense. If you take him out of the middle to guard Kimme’s 3-pt shooting, you might just as well sit him down on the bench.
T-Rob is the one that we need to try on English first. T-Rob’s most important contribution (scoring in the paint) is unaffected by his having to guard English. T-Rob’s 2nd most important contribution (rebounding) is affected but Withey is just going to have to step up and rebound more when T-Rob is outside guarding English.
by Marty_ on Feb 3, 2012 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's prettty obvious we have some very different views about ...
how to best match up with Missouri’s 4-guard lineup. I trust Bill Self knows his players’ abilities even better than we fans do and will make the right choices. Remember, Missouri has to find a way to match up with us as well and that will be tough for them, I think.
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