Kansas Basketball And The College Basketball Rankings
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 13, 2012 2:13 PM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk Basketball 2011-12
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The updated polls came out today and Kansas is now ranked no. 5 in the coaches poll and no. 4 in the AP poll. While I'm not one who cares about rankings, particularly in college basketball, I sit here somewhat amazed that we're deservedly in the top 5 on February 13th.
I went into this season thinking we were the class of the Big 12 and probably a top 12-16 type of team. The Final Four never really entered my thought process. But I sit here somewhat amazed that we're deservedly in the top 5 on February 13th. With that in mind, I thought it was time for us to discuss the national landscape.
Tier 1: Kentucky
And right now, it's not even close. Despite some top-heavy opposition early, they haven't had to endure a very arduous schedule. I suppose that could come back to haunt them. But when you watch that team click, it's hard to imagine them losing. If they are to get toppled, it will be the product of youth, and specifically, Marquis Teague. This is their title to lose.
Tier 2: Syracuse
I'm not completely sure I believe they belong here, but with only one FabMelo-less loss on their rsume, I'll hold them here for now. Love to watch them in transition, but make them play in the half court and you'll be in good shape.
Tier 2B: Ohio State, North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Missouri, & Duke
I'm grouping these six, because at this point, we've exhausted the contenders. I should be careful about saying that, considering the teams that were in last year's Final Four (far and away the worst of my lifetime), but I will be utterly shocked if a team not yet listed cuts down the nets.
Ohio State is trending downward, but I like Sullinger too much to ignore them. UNC has the talent, but maybe not the chemistry, to beat anyone. Kansas and Michigan State wouldn't have made any sense around Christmas, but both of them just keep getting better. Neither Missouri nor Duke plays any defense, but Missouri is a pesky matchup and Duke has a coach who has been there before.
Tier 3: Georgetown, Florida, Baylor, Wichita St., Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, & Louisville
I see almost no difference between these eight teams. For the sake of argument, leave them in this order and tell me with certainty that Georgetown is better than Louisville. Hell, tell me that Georgetown is better than any of them.
After these 16, there are some teams I like, some that would be atrocious matchups, and a whole lot of mediocrity. But that's college basketball ever since 2008 ended.
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It truly is Kentucky's title to lose
And it will – either on the court or when the NCAA forces Cal to vacate another Final Four appearance.
by jayhawk1996 on Feb 13, 2012 2:15 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I still think Ohio State is the best team
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
They didn't dominate
us on a neutral court and we’ve gotten a LOT better since then (they’ve gotten better too but not improved as much). Ohio State played us tough in AFH without their best player. Not saying we couldn’t beat tOSU now with Sully, but it’s hard to argue too strongly that Kentucky would dominate.
Did we watch the same game at MSG?
We got dominated in that game. Tyshawn’s free throws were the only reason we were within 15 points. The margin was +/- 20 pretty much the last 15 minutes of that game. We were not close.
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by Bensa on Feb 13, 2012 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Different definitions
of domination I think. I wouldn’t say we dominated KState in AFH, for instance. Won handily, sure but not dominate.
I don't mean to quibble, but I've
not met or talked to anybody who thought UK wasn’t CLEARLY better than KU that night. We played poorly, but they beat us handily when they didn’t pay well either.
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10 points
is not a domination. I didn’t have any moments in the second half that I thought we’d win, but it wasn’t embarrassing by any means.
The score at the end looked respectable,
but we weren’t only 10 points worse than them that game.
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I'm torn on this game...
I left it thinking UK was on a different level than us and that we were going to have to fight to compete this year. That’s still true, but it’s pretty crazy how much better we’ve become since then. That was the first time T-Rob had ever dealt with a double team, for instance.
My other gillmer of hopes is along the same lines – because all of their points came in transition. When we had them in the half court, we defended them just fine. But when we turned it over, we didn’t have a chance.
They’re clearly better than we are, but any team that takes care of the ball has a chance. Whether or not we’re capable, I don’t know. But I’d love to find out in New Orleans.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 13, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
I think people misread how bad the SEC is this year
We won’t know much about UK until they get into the tournament. The teams they’re facing now just aren’t very good.
Good point
It’s not apples-to-apples, but the SEC this year is a lot like the C-USA that Cal dominated when he was at Memphis
I think they match up with them pretty well
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
Lots of smoke
in Chicago about Anthony Davis’s recruitment. They seem to think there is a lot of evidence of a $200,000 payment to someone close enough to Davis that it will stick. The interwebs are generally cesspools (and Illini fans are generally pretty silly) but when everyone is telling the exact same story it makes it a little less ridiculous.
WWW.GUYATWORKTHATSPENDSTOOMUCHTIMEONILLINIBOARD.COM
:) It’s been rumored since before he decided to go to UK according to this guy. Interesting coming from Illini as he admits they never had a real shot at unibrow.
That smoke has been around since
August 2010 when the Sun-Times published an article saying his recruitment was for sale. They later removed that article but still insisted that people at other programs had confirmed Davis’ father looking for the highest bidder.
I even saw a rumor that Pat Forde was going to release a big article on Yahoo detailing the recruitment. But who knows.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
This was the famous
Pat Forde-gate of last fall. Not sure who ended up kobashing it but rumor was Forde also had some dirt around Teague.
Either way, not hard to believe that Calipari will get whatever he does this year stripped.
I've heard a lot about that too
If so, thats strike 3 for Cal…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 13, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
He'll be comfortably in the NBA
by the time the NCAA gets around to pronouncing judgement.
Knicks once Dantoni gets fired I bet
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
I don't care about the polls at all
But we’ve sat in the top 5 of both Pomeroy and Sagarin Predictor since December, and I think that’s incredible. Bill Self ought to have a real chance at National Coach of the Year.
He should, but won't.
That’ll go to Frank Haith, probably. HCBS won it in 08-09, and even though he’s done an equally great job with this team, I just don’t see it happening this year. He’s a victim of his own success in that regard.
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Which is great
because it means they’ll have a hard time firing his mediocre butt.
And then I remember that they’re not even going to be in our conference to laugh at after this year.
I see a lot of Bruce Weber in him
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
Not as big a dbag
but yeah, he’s doing some nice things with a team full of experienced guys developed by the prior regime.
I have to say that I'm shocked that Weber hasn't worked out better
I really thought that was a good hire. Maybe Matt Painter was the secret to the success at So. Illinois.
It's a totally different job
to win in the Big 10 vs. the MWC. Most guys that have Weber+ success at the MWC level fail at the major conference level. His first press conference I knew he was going to fail. Really surprised they gave him as long as they did considering.
Uh, he took a team to the national championship game his second year
This isn’t Turner Gill we’re talking about. The guy obviously has some coaching skill.
Hmm
he’s been a pretty big disappointment since the lightning in a bottle season. And that’s a GREAT job.
He's averaging way more wins/season than Kruger or Henson did
By winning percentage, he is easily the second best coach (behind only Bill Self) at Illinois since World War Two
Since that 03-04 year
4th, 9th, 2nd, 5th, 4th in the Big 10. At a program that thinks as highly of themselves as Illinois does that’s just a train wreck.
I'm not faulting them for putting him on the hot seat
I’m just saying that he’s been a pretty good coach overall. I think it’s as likely that they go down as go up after their next hire. If they think a coach with a .690 winning percentage is a big disappointment, they’re setting themselves up for failure. NC State, Wake Forest, and Tennessee should be cautionary tales.
I think the Big Ten is going to be a fight for fourth place for the foreseeable future. Ohio State, Michigan State, and Indiana should fight over the top 3 spots.
Probably true
but there’s no reason that Illinois can’t get a coach as good as Ohio State, and maybe better than Michigan State once Izzo retires. Of the jobs opening up this off season I would almost guarantee that will be the best- and that includes UConn (unless Roy or K retire).
A school that runs off guys with .680 winning percentages
is not going to have its pick of top coaches.
I'll take that bet
Any coach not currently at a top 10 job will be interested in Illinois.
OK
My money is on the next coach having a worse record than Weber after nine years if he even lasts that long
The .680
includes a 37-2 year. The extreme outlier.
In the last 7 years he’s averaged 21-12.
That's the same as Kruger and Henson
Even if we include their best outliers.
He’s basically doing what Illinois did before Self got there.
I don’t have any problem with them firing him and saying they want more. I just don’t think they’re likely to get it.
I'd probably take the 50/50
and find a new coach though. You know Weber is a 21-win per year coach. Especially when they get near the pick of the litter right now as no better jobs are likely going to be available.
Exactly
Unless they can get Brad Stevens or anyone else with Final Four experience, how do you do better than a guy who has taken a team to the tournament final?
with someone else's guys
I’m fine with the argument that Bruce Weber isn’t a dumpster fire (though I’m not a fan of a lot of his in game tactics) but I don’t think he should get a ton of credit for that (though he should get some obviously)
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
So by your definition
Indiana should have never gotten rid of Mike Davis. He made the title game!
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 13, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
04-05 was the outlier
that’s why he’s getting fired. You can make the same case for Frank Haith staying in Missouri for decades if he never comes close to matching this year’s success. Ultimately a program like Illinois expects to be contenders most years. They haven’t been a contender but 1 time under Weber.
Not to mention he has gotten talent there
If you want to buy recruit rankings. He has gotten some good pieces.
He also has a super fertile recruiting ground (Chicago) in his own backyard.
Guy underachieved, plain and simple.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 13, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Illinois had two Big Ten titles in the 40 years before Self
Why exactly do they expect to be a contender most years?
The most fertile recruiting ground
maybe in the nation is in your state. You have to do better than 21 wins a year for the last 7 years.
But they didn't before Self
Why would they now?
Maybe you're right
that they are unreasonable. But I have a hard time faulting a fan base that has Illinois’ resources and commitment to basketball that doesn’t accept 21 wins a year.
Yeah, I agree with that
I don’t have a problem with them saying “we want to do better.” That’s their prerogative. I only object if they say that they expect to.
And, like I said, I think it’s more likely that they do worse than do better. As frustrating as he’s been, Weber’s set the bar high enough that most coaches wouldn’t meet it.
True
but it’s not like they had a quick trigger here. They gave him 7 mediocre seasons to get it turned around. I would wager that a guy like Dixon or Wright can get them back to Bill Self levels.
My thoughts exactly
Its funny. My family lives in Illinois now, and all their friends and neighbors are Illini fans. All i heard was “Self can’t coach we are better off with Weber!” for the first few years I was in college.
Yep.
Now they are running him out of town. Funny how that works
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 13, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
That Illinois team was absolutely loaded
Hard for any decent coach to not make a run with em.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 13, 2012 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
Though to be fair
I was almost as certain that Frank Martin would fail miserably as well and he’s proven me wrong.
I think MU probably needs to win the Big 12 to get Haith the COY
If Haith is under serious consideration, it seems to me that Gregg Marshall at Wichita State should be too. They’ve posted similar records against similar schedules. They both have senior-laden teams making a big jump up in performance from the previous year.
Marshall would need
to practically go undefeated to win COY from Wichita State. Just the way it is.
I think UNLV is better than Indiana
I’d make that substitution on your tier list.
I don't think Indiana belongs on any tier, personally. They are NOT a threat. At all.
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I'd also probably put Marquette on that tier.
And I’d at least think about Temple.
Agreed...Marquette was an oversight
You could easily talk me into them over Wisconsin or Michigan, and maybe even Indiana. I do give some credence to beating OSU and Kentucky, even if both were in Bloomington.
I’m not a big believer in UNLV, though.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 13, 2012 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Indiana looked great in December
They’ve looked pretty crummy since then.
Xavier is in the same boat.
Like the idea
I would probably not put Kentucky on it’s own Tier, though. Mine would be:
Tier 1
Kentucky, Syracuse
Tier 2
Ohio State, North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Missouri, & Duke
Tier 3
Georgetown, Florida, Baylor, Wichita St., Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, & Louisville
by I need more Esteban on Feb 13, 2012 3:03 PM CST reply actions
I'd bump tOSU up above Cuse,
and I’m not sure about the Orange in the top tier.
The next three best teams in the BEast (by KP) are Marquette, GT, and Louisville. They only play Marquette once, at home. They only play GT once, at home. They haven’t played Louisville yet at all. I think their schedule is making them look better than they are, surprise surprise.
If Tier 1,2,3 are
truly the class of Div I, who has played the most games against them? More than 7?
Does anyone but UK and KU have a winning record against the rest of them?
How many losses to teams outside this ‘top 16’?
Are Iowa State and K-State, with 6 conference games in that group, going to be the most formidable 8-12 seeds in the NCAA tourney? Or even UTx or OkSt who may sneak into ‘first 4’?
RRROOOOCK CHAAAALLLK! JAAAAYYYHAAAAWWWK! KAAAAYYY UUuuuUU!
SURPRISING HAWKS
as much as i love my hawks i have to say that they have already surpassed my expectations for the year. with us losing all we did for us to be in the title hunt this late truly unbelievable. oh ye of little faith. lol just goes to show you what a unbelievable coach coach self truly is geting the most from the players and to have a coach like coach manning the development he get from the big men i am afraid he won’t be with us much longer. unfortunately now that they have accomplished what they have me being the greedy person that i am now i want a deep run in the ncaa. i get so wrapped up and so upset when they lose then when i have time to rationalize the game and such i think why can’t i be happy and just enjoy the ride our hawks have givin us this year. to do what they have done and to be where they are at in the polls? but only one thing matters thats the championship. do i think we have a ral good chance at that? probably not but who knows? who you draw how other teams fare in the tourney. one last thing. i said this before and i say again. if you are gonna get us you should of done it this year cause next year we reload. GO HAWKS good luck guys
Let's not forget UNC almost took down UK at Rupp earlier this year.
Even though they have went opposite directions since.
Supporter of Carlos Austin Boozer, and I don't want to see Dwight Howard in a Bulls uniform. Call me crazy.
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 13, 2012 3:12 PM CST reply actions
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