Kansas vs. Kansas State: A New Beginning For An Old Rivalry
by Owen on Jan 4, 2012 1:00 PM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk Basketball 2011-12
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PrintAsk a Kansas fan who their biggest rival is and you will likely get one of two answers. Some will likely point to the Jayhawks upcoming opponent Kansas State. Others will remain pretty adamant that Missouri is where the true hatred lies.
Some of that probably depends on what era of Kansas sports you grew up in, where you might reside in the State of Kansas or elsewhere or perhaps other family factors. But when all is said and done I would think that based on the nature of the rivalry and the way things have played out over the last 25 or so years, Missouri has probably raised the blood pressure for most Jayhawks a little bit more than the rival Wildcats to the West.
However tonight might just signify the beginning of a shift in that way of thinking for some, at least it does a bit for this Jayhawk. While Kansas still have a lot to play for in two upcoming meetings with the Missouri Tigers in 2012, that series ends this year and all indications are pointing to the two sides moving on for the time being. With any future non-conference meeting between Kansas and Missouri having little to do with anything of significance, Kansas State and the in-state rivalry suddenly gets a makeover.
When you step back and look at the Sunflower Showdown over the years it just hasn't been competitive for an extended period of time. Whether it's football or basketball it just hasn't sustained the back and forth that Missouri vs. Kansas has been able to. That thinking really applies to either sport with either Kansas or Kansas State holding a decided advantage on the football field or the basketball court for quite some time. This leads to the 'cheer for anything Kansas' mentality.
On the basketball court the Jayhawks hold a 181-91 edge currently in the series and since 1990 Kansas has only lost FIVE games in the series. While Missouri has struggled to compete at times of late, they have always been a bit more competitive and they have always had the players and coaches that made you love to hate. Missouri's departure leaves a bit of a void and a shift toward a more significant Sunflower Showdown begins tonight.
Based on early season predictions Kansas State looked like a team that was going to have to experience some growing pains with the departure of one of the better Wildcats in recent memory Jacob Pullen. Frank Martin has taken his team and done the opposite. The Wildcats could actually make an argument that they are playing better at this point this season when compared to where they were at this same juncture a year ago. As much as people have doubted Martin and his ability to sustain success in Manhattan, he's been proving some of those doubts wrong up to this point.
Combine that sustained growth as a program with the departure of the Tigers to the SEC and Kansas vs. Kansas State becomes all that more compelling if you're a Jayhawk fan. Sure there is the budding Texas v Kansas rivalry that for the moment features a home and home every year and Baylor has put themselves on the map of late, but for my dollar the best basketball in the Big 12 is played in the State of Kansas and now there is one clear and defined in-state, in-conference rival and that's going to be Kansas State. I find it even more compelling due to the tough physical nature of Kansas State and Bill Self's ability to coach toughness when it's needed most. The game becomes a dogfight.
Obviously things change and conference realignment never seems to end so it's possible that this to could eventually be ruined by money and television. But for now at least, the battle for the State of Kansas is getting a new lease on a long standing rivalry and with Frank Martin and Bill Self running these two respective programs it could become a pretty good one with time. At least that's this fans opinion and I'm a Kansas fan who has ALWAYS hated the Tigers with far more passion than I've ever hated Kansas State.
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I'm still not buying it
Guess I’ll have to wait til Mizzou is actually gone before I need a new rivalry but at this point K-State is still the little brother to me, not the direct competitor.
by smartwater on Jan 4, 2012 1:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Here's the rub
It has to be competitive to be a rivalry. In hoops, it’s not. Never has been. And it will take more K-State wins to be that way. I don’t wanna see that. How many DVDs can they make?
In football, one could argue it’s on the way to becoming one, but it’s only been in K-State’s favor under Snyder. We all saw what happened when Ron Prince showed up.
I’ll just continue to hate Mizzou from afar. My wife went to Arkansas, so it will be easier to keep tabs on them.
Just how myopic are you?
During the golden era of the basketball rivalry, from Tex Winter through Lon Kruger, and from Dick Harp through Larry Brown, the two teams were amazingly evenly matched. KSU won 65.5% of the games, and had 12 conference titles, KU won 66.7% and had 9 conference titles (I can’t find the KSU vs KU intraseason records). After the 1988 season the two programs went on wildly divergent paths, KSU falling on its face and KU becoming a top 3 program nationally. That’s a generation of one sided beatdowns that might finally be evening out, but to say it has never been a rivalry demonstrates your ignorance of the past.
KSU vs KU football isn’t a rivalry over the last decade, it’s the reverse of basketball, a one sided beatdown relieved only by the change of seasons. Despite Prince’s ineptitude against everyone but Texas, the KSU vs KU average score since Snyder was hired (a generation ago) is KSU 33, KU 17, with record of KSU 16, KU 7. Going back two generations, since the inception of the Govenor’s cup, the record is KSU 22-19-1. Before that, everyone knows just how historically awful KSU’s football was.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
This is the automatic KSU fan response
You gotta remember, you are bringing up stuff from a looooong time ago. As in before I was born.
Yes, it used to be close. But 1989-2007 is a very long period of time. And KSU was downright terrible during this stretch. This is also the time period that most KU fans on here remember/were old enough to remember.
Throw in KU’s 7 straight league titles and the ’08 national title, and its going to take more than beating us one out of every five games to make it a “rivalry.” Like I said below, it will take some Texas style “hey look we made some noise in the tournament, put a few guys in the league, and are at the top of the standings with you every year” competition to make it fierce. Otherwise, to many KU fans, you are another Oklahoma State, you just happen to be a hell of a lot closer.
Like I said, I think KSU is getting there, they just need a little more time. If there ever was a year to do it, it is now. KU isn’t going to be great this year or next, and then we will be super loaded again (yay incoming recruiting classes).
Shit happens when you win championships
If someone claims it's not a rivalry, the distant past is pretty irrelevant
If someone claims it has never been a rivalry (as jayhawk1996 did), the distant past is pretty relevant. So I think Sean T was on point.
If K-State beats starts taking 40% of games off of us, I think the rivalry will heat up real fast, regardless of what they do in the tournament or who they put in the NBA. It sucks more losing to them (this the defining attribute of rivalries, I think), but it has happened so rarely that it doesn’t feel like a rivalry any more. If they take a bunch of games off of us in the next few years, I think it will be a great rivalry.
I'll admit to going a bit overboard about it never being a rivalry
But I started following KU hoops in 1985-86. To me, it’s shown signs of becoming a hoops rivalry, most notably in 1988 and 2008. But that’s about it. A good run every 20 years or so isn’t going to change much.
I'm only a year or two older
But I remember the rivalry being pretty intense during the years Manning was at KU. Those K-State teams with Richmond and Henson were good, and, if remember right, they took 3 games off of us in 1988 before we finally won the 4th in Pontiac.
It also helped that we had a lot of local guys like Turgeon and Kellogg playing big minutes.
I’d say the rivalry was going strong in the 80s, but it obviously diminished significantly over the next 20 years. We’ll see if Martin is a good enough coach to get it restarted (although KU is also a better program now than we were in the 80s, so Martin has a tougher task than Hartman and Krueger).
I believe KU and KSU split in 88
Both won on the other team’s floor in the regular season, KSU won in the Big 12 tourny, KU won in the NCAA tourny.
Could be wrong though.
Shit happens when you win championships
My response came from his statement "never has been" which I believe is clearly ridiculous.
I know it’s been a weak rivalry over the last 20+ years.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
The golden era of the basketball rivalry is just that - a long time ago
I’m old enough to remember 1988, but none of the current KU or KSU students were even born. My father, who went to KU in the 60s, tells tales of a time when KSU was dominant in hoops, but how many NCAA titles came from those Final Four berths?
KU has dominated in hoops for a long time but...
in fairness to the K-State fan, you did use the word “never”. Such inaccuracy only opens the door for them.
I don't think you should use national titles to determine whether a period was "golden" or not
I mean, and KU fan would say that the 90s were some of the best years (if not the best) years of KU basketball…but there were’t any title banners being raised then either
by 2.1 seconds left on Jan 4, 2012 2:43 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed. The tournament is too much of a crapshoot to judge based on that
Look at total wins or conference championships or maybe sweet 16s, but don’t reduce it to national championships. It’s a bad measure. We have one national championship in the last 20 years, but this has certainly be a golden era for KU basketball.
by KSinDC on Jan 4, 2012 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Was mostly a dig on the Purple people
Of course, it was easier to get to the Final Four in those days – smaller tournament field.
But harder to get in the tourney itself
Since i think you had to be a conference champ to qualify back then
by 2.1 seconds left on Jan 4, 2012 3:01 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
For awhile, you had to win your conference and then win a playoff to get in
Conferences were paired in regions and conference champs within a region played off for the right to that regions tournament bid. I think the Big 8 was paired with the Missouri Valley and maybe others.
One of the less advertised reasons that UCLA was able to be so dominant is that they played in a crappy conference in a crappy region, so reaching the tournament was far easier for them than for a school in the east or midwest.
Hey, I'm a KSU student and I was born in 83!
Well, I’m a grad student anyway. And one of the 3 oldest in the department.
…
Nevermind.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Exactly Owen -
“When you step back and look at the Sunflower Showdown over the years it just hasn’t been competitive for an extended period of time. Whether it’s football or basketball it just hasn’t sustained the back and forth that Missouri vs. Kansas has been able to. That thinking really applies to either sport with either Kansas or Kansas State holding a decided advantage on the football field or the basketball court for quite some time. This leads to the ‘cheer for anything Kansas’ mentality.”
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
The fans might not allow it to become one
KU fans don’t fear KState because they’ve rarely beaten KU over the past 20 some years, and only have one notable tourny run. KU fans always feared Mizzou because the Tiggers had a knack for being able to beat us at anytime. 15-1 big 12 season… one loss was Mizzou. etc etc. Several of Quinn’s teams were highly ranked at one point too.
KSU fans look at the small picture. OH MY GOD WE BEAT KU YESSSSSSSSSS ::call in sick to work the next day, party for two weeks:: KU fans see a program that made a DVD for its “greatest season ever” which featured an 0-3 run vs. KU, no league hardware and a loss in the Elite 8. KU had a better year than that last year, and I don’t see any DVDs anywhere…
It is the stuff like this that enforces the annoying little brother stereotype. KSU is better known nationally for Frank Martin’s tantrums and antics than the product they put on the court.
I think KSU is on their way to shedding this label, but it will take time. Consistent winning, constantly being up in the league rankings, and more national success will help. Look at Texas. Their success, challenges to KU, etc turned them into a big rival of KU’s. I think KSU is moving closer there every season. But more winning and less rioting on a wednesday night/DVDs/etc will help KU fans start to take them seriously.
Shit happens when you win championships
I'll also add that last season certainly didn't help KSU
A lot of people bought the hype and bought into them finally winning the league, crashing a Final 4… etc. And KU won it…again, and KSU struggled and lost in the second round of the tournament.
Similar to KU’s football season in 2009. People bought the hype, got really reved up, then were like WTF!?!?! Their crash wasn’t as catastrophic as ours, but the similarities are there.
When stuff like that happens, fans (especially casual ones) take the “yep, they’re still same old team we thought they were” attitude.
Shit happens when you win championships
"It is the stuff like this that enforces the annoying little brother stereotype."
I agree. I want KSU fans to be better than that.
Beating KU isn’t the greatest thing ever. It’s fun to taunt your neighbors, but it’s sad if that’s the most important thing in your life.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
by Sean T on Jan 4, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Winning cures all
Best point – KU football.
My freshman year, we beat KSU, I stormed the field, partied until I was puking in the dorm parking lot on in the evening. Junior year – more partying. Senior year – fist pump. Super senior year (went an extra semester) I was just kind of like “meh. Sweet.”
It wasn’t because KSU was down, more so our team was finally fairly good and every game was more equal.
Beating KU is always going to be super special to KSU fans, and vice versa for KU fans (although to a lesser extent). But consistent success will make it less important.
We all need to remember that in the end, we are getting lumped into some 68 team single elimination wild as hell kinda bs when you think about it NCAA tournament. The regular season gets less important to me every year, because KU is always in the big dance. I’m just like “wake me up in March, and hopefully we get hot and make a run.”
Now that KSU is consistently finishing in the top third of the league and is consistently in the big dance, I think Wildcat fans will start feeling the same way. And it makes rivalry games less important too (especially compared to football).
Shit happens when you win championships
And when I say "(although to a lesser extent)"
I mean basketball only. Beating anyone is a huge deal for KU football right now…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 4, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree with you about the diminished importance of the regular season, but I can certainly understand your perspective
It seems to me OU and KU fans are rather alike. Both OU football and KU bball have owned the league to such an extent, it simply isn’t fun anymore. A national title isn’t the only thing that matters, but it’s getting there.
I remember how excited KSU fans were in 2003 after winning the conference in football. It was wonderful! I’m sure OSU fans felt the same way this year, particularly giving it to OU the way they did. But for OU fans it was not a big deal.
This season I think it is likely a fanbase or two is going to be ecstatic about their first conference basketball title in ages, whereas KU fans will barely blink. Let’s say KSU wins or shares the Big 12 title, and then gets bounced in the 2nd round of the tourney. I won’t remember the tourney loss, but I’ll remember the conference title for a very long time (and I will buy the t-shirt… and possibly the DVD). I daresay if that same thing happened to KU, you’d be exactly the opposite.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Can't stand em
I hope Mizzou goes winless every single year and KSU wins only the games against Mizzou. I imagine I’ll care much less about Mizzou going forward and simply root for KSU to put up zeros in the W column from here on out.
Having said all I've said, I will say that
I definitely think it is a “rivalry” and a good one at that. I just think it has a long way to go before it can approach some of the bigger rivalries in the sport. And, like I said, I think it has the potential to do so.
Shit happens when you win championships
I guess I look at the term "rivalry" different than a lot of you
For me, the degree of competitiveness can add to the intensity of a rivalry, but it doesn’t determine its authenticity. I don’t buy that anyone reading this doesn’t care more about winning this game than they do a random game against Texas A&M or Iowa State. Even if it’s only because of your annoying, purple-clad coworkers, this game is bigger than our average Big 12 games. That makes it a rivalry, even if their basketball program doesn’t stack up to ours (and no, Wildcat fans, it doesn’t).
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
by PenHawk on Jan 4, 2012 2:18 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I completely agree with this
I was arguing in the light of “is it or will it ever become a premier college rivalry” or even “will it reach KU-MU status”
Shit happens when you win championships
I think the part about
where you grew up in Kansas or where you have family is definitely a big factor in this.
A lot of my relatives are K-Staters but they don’t talk a lot of trash so it never gets to be a huge deal, just a casual rib here and there from both sides. A good friend of mine’s family is relentless in taunting, you know the kind that call when KU gets upset in the tournament. Like all of us, that absolutely infuriates him because it has nothing to do with their school. So for that reason, he hates K-State and considers it to be a much bigger deal to beat them than I. Whereas, I want to beat them, but lost a lot of the hatred to them when my sister went to undergrad there.
It’s
by I need more Esteban on Jan 4, 2012 4:52 PM CST reply actions
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