A (semi) Statistical Recap of North Dakota
by fetch9 on Jan 2, 2012 9:00 AM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk Basketball 2011-12
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PrintThe weirdest game of the year for me personally ended up pretty great in my view: Kansas won, the bench players got to play a lot, and I thought the Sioux showcased themselves quite well and set themselves up as Great West favorites and a possible NCAA Tournament team in a couple of years.
Kansas scored 1.2 points per possession and allowed .83, which is actually probably more than a team would like to allow against a cupcake. But at the same time a lot of that probably came with mostly backups playing (and it should be noted that Jordan Juenemann spent 7 minutes defending UND's two most athletic players, which was as bad as it was hilarious). The big "problem" defensively came from inside the arc, oddly enough, with the Sioux shooting 43.5% from two. That's actually about 5% over Kansas's season average, but a lot of that likely has to do with Jeff Withey playing only 8 minutes due to being in Bill Self's doghouse. I don't second guess Self often, but if he limits Withey's minutes because he makes a dumb mistake or two I will personally go to his office to yell at him.
Offensively the biggest problem came in shooting from deep. Kansas shot just 22.2% from three, and it's something that will need to get better if Kansas is to win an 8th straight Big 12 title. But despite that Kansas still had an eFG over 53% and took care of the ball as well as they have all year, turning it over on just 14.3% of its possessions. Even without Withey in there they managed to outmuscle the undersized Sioux, nabbing 40.5% of its misses (and limiting UND to just 20.6%).
- Tough not to start with Thomas Robinson. The first 30-20 game for Kansas in 50 years and just the 5th player to have a 30-20 game in Big 12 history (trivia question: name the other four). Nothing more needs to be said but for good measure he did it taking only 14 shots from the field. 30 points. 14 shots. 30 points. 14 shots. It was only UND but sweet god that is amazing.
- Elijah Johnson has been Mr. Facilitator lately: he had 7 assists and just 1 turnover on Saturday, and also went a hilarious 2-10 from three. Miles Simon made the point a few times but with how athletic he is he needs to get into the lane some more. It would also let him have some more time to shoot threes rather than needing to go quickly on a 30 footer.
- Tyshawn had 18 and was 6-10 from two and 1-3 from deep. He's still our biggest three point threat, now up to 51.4%. The improvement on his jump shot has been fantastic.
- D2 All-American Conner Teahan was just 1-6 from three.
- Tharpe only played 6 minutes. He again should have gotten more playing time so that he's A. ready for next year and B. doesn't entertain the thought of transferring but hey making sure we beat North Dakota by 40 is more important.
- Merv only got 4 minutes and I still haven't gotten a good explanation as to why he doesn't play over Tehan other than "Tehan knows the system" BS.
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I think Durant had one
My other guesses are Beasley, Blake Griffin? Did Nick Collison have one?
Shit happens when you win championships
I believe Beasley's college debut was a 30-20...
And I’m almost 100% sure Griffin did it twice, I remember the one against Texas Tech, and I’d guarantee he had one early in the season against a bad team. Collison is way too far in the past for me, but I remember he had a monster game against Duke in the tourney. Some other names I think of are Damion James, LaMarcus Aldridge, that dude Aldridge played with (I can’t remember his name! AJ something?), and Drew Gooden.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jan 2, 2012 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
PJ Tuker is who you are thinking of
Aldridge’s teammate, won Big 12 player of the year. He was like an undersized tweener who had absolutely no shot to play in the NBA, then stupidly declared after his sophomore year (and didn’t get drafted).
Aldridge is a good guess. I know Collison had a 20-20 game against Texas, not sure if he ever had a 30-20… I don’t think Gooden did.
Shit happens when you win championships
Since TRob is the 1st Jayhawk to have a 30-20
Nick could not have had one.
Durant, t-Rob, Griffin (multiple times), and Mario Boggans
Bogans had an absolutely miraculous game for Okie Lite against Durant in one of the best games in Big 12 history. People forget how good he was since he hasn’t had the NBA career that the others have (and will have).
R.I.P. DOM
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Jan 2, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
Was that the redunk multiple overtime game?
I remember that one.
Shit happens when you win championships
That's only four...
You forgot Beasley. I looked it up, he did have one in his college debut against Sacramento State. 32 points and 24 rebounds in 31 minutes. He almost had against Western Illinois, but finished with 28 points and 22 rebounds.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jan 2, 2012 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with your final 2 points, and have been bitching about them for a few weeks
I don’t think there is any way Tharpe transfers though. He is really the only point guard on the team next year, and all the recruits Self has gotten lately are bigs, wings, or true shooting guards. He knows big PT is right around the corner, and its not like he was a Selby type recruit.
Shit happens when you win championships
Yeah Tharpe won't transfer
He will be a starting guard next season unless something drastically changes, and he knows that. As for Lindsay, I still would imagine that it is his lack of understanding of the offense. Say what you will about Teahan, but the ball never sticks when he is out there and other teams at least know that they have to honor his shot, since that’s all that is next to his name on the scouting report.
by 2.1 seconds left on Jan 2, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Final thought:
Elijah is starting to remind me of Keith Langford. All the athleticism in the world, great at getting to the rim… yet falling way too in love with a three point shot that is deadly when on (Ohio State game) and maddening when off (ND game).
Shit happens when you win championships
I'll respectfully disagree with your comparison
Langford was a slasher who could handle the ball, create his own shot, get to the rim whenever he wanted and could finish. He also had a great mid-range jumper and played sufficating D. Oh, and he’s the 6th highest scorer in Kansas history.
EJ has trouble handling the rock, can’t beat a guy off the dribble or create his own shot and, like you said, falling in love with the 3. I like EJ and keep waiting for him to break out and play on a high level on a consistent basis, but he’s no Ke-Freeze!
I never said he was as good as Langford
My point is both can be erratic shooting from three. Langford, especially his senior year, struggled quite a bit at times shooting from the outside. I guess my point is that I’d like EJ to focus more on other parts of his game, because he shows flashes of the skills that made Langford dangerous.
Shit happens when you win championships
I can tell you're a Langford guy, but...
I think you may be embellishing the past a bit. Langford could do all of those things and if he had done them consistently, instead of trying to prove to scouts that he could shoot threes, he would have had an even better career. I won’t even address the defense, other than to say that EJ is a much better defender now than Langford ever was…
To Andrew’s point, I agree with you. That stat about him only taking 10 FTs this year is unbelievable. With a guy like Yeahan, you have to live with off shooting nights, but EJ should never have to.
by hiphopopotamus on Jan 3, 2012 8:08 AM CST up reply actions
I think Withey was pulled he couldn't keep up with UND, not because of a mistake.
I could be wrong on that, but I don’t remember him making a mistake that would cause Self to pull him. He just seemed to be a bit slow on the defensive end and it was hurting us on the inside.
Yeah that's what I thought as well
Withey just isn’t suited to play against teams that don’t have a center-style player. If you pull him away from the basket with a more perimeter oriented player then it takes away his shot-blocking anyways and creates a liability on the outside, which is why I thought he didn’t play as much.
by 2.1 seconds left on Jan 2, 2012 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
Anyone else find it odd that Self was playing his starters up 20+ with 5 minutes to play?
With all his talk about getting some more minutes for the bench guys, I thought it odd that it took so long to pull our starters. I think six minutes for Tharpe is ridiculous. In a game like that I would expect 10-15 for Tharpe, Young & Wesley.
Your answer
is Blake Griffin (2x), Durant, Beasley and Mario Boggan
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
WEVE ALREADY FIGURED IT OUT MAN SEE ABOVE WE GOT IT ITS FIGURED OUT WE GOT THE 4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 2, 2012 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
dang
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
by fetch9 on Jan 2, 2012 9:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Lots of posts
but only 1 minute difference between Fetch’s answer and “That’s only four” by wrigleyrocker12.
I don't want to sound like a dick
But all this second-guessing of Self’s allocation of minutes would be better suited to the comment sections on the Star or some other unreadable site.
The guy has won seven straight conference championships. He knows what he’s doing. He also has more information than we do since he sees practice every day and talks to the players every day.
I guess it’s fine to speculate that Self might have gotten crossways with one player and ought to give him another chance, but complaining that he’s misallocating playing time to Withey, Teahan, Tharpe and Lindsey? It would be far more useful to review the tape and see what’s getting players taken out / left in. Warden did a great job of that in the Davidson review. But I recognize that’s super time consuming, and you guys are working for free. So I’d settle for a little less second guessing of a guy who’s among the very best in the world at what he does.
We can't discuss players and minutes?
I don’t wanna sound like a dick, but this is a message board, and we can talk about whatever we want to.
Shit happens when you win championships
Most message boards suck
Rock Chalk Talk is generally far better than the comments section at the Star or KUSports.com or any number of other sites.
Message board posters are free to talk like you know more about basketball than Coach Self. It’s just not very interesting, educational or useful. It’s the sort of inane commentary you can find on any one of a hundred internet sites.
What is interesting, educational and useful is trying to understand what makes Self a great coach — why he plays the guys he plays. Warden did a great job with that after the Davidson game.
If you think Pat Knight is giving playing time to the wrong players, you may have a point. If you think Bill Self is giving playing time to the wrong players, you’re almost certainly wrong. So posting that opinion doesn’t do much to enhance the site. But trying to find out why that opinion is wrong (why is Self pulling the guys you think should be playing more) could make for great content.
This is criticism, but it’s meant to be constructive.
"So I’d settle for a little less second guessing of a guy who’s among the very best in the world at what he does."
You’d settle? I’m sorry, we are authors on here to cater to what you specifically want?
Like you said, we do this for free. Hence, we are a lot more likely to write about and talk about whatever we’d like.
And, you are more than welcome to write your own post, and talk about what you’d like.
And, if we really wanna push the envelope, I’ll throw out the Self has one final 4 in eight years, despite constantly fielding the best team in his league. He also has two first round exits and a second round exit with the second most loaded team in his tenure. The guy isn’t John Wooden.
Shit happens when you win championships
If you don't want feedback, you're free to ignore it
I think the advice I gave would help enhance the site, but it’s your choice.
As long as I’m giving advice (and you’re free to ignore this too), I think minimizing Self’s accomplishments is also probably a bad angle to take on a KU blog. It’s probably not even a good angle to take on an MU blog, if you want to be taken seriously. The guy has the best record in the country over any number of years you want to look at .
I'm not minimizing anything
I’m one of the biggest KU homers in the world. I just think your view that we aren’t allowed to critique Self’s use of minutes, bench, etc is ridiculous. Yes, he is a great coach. He has won big. And he has some frustrating loses, especially in the tournament. Unless the guy is winning it all every year, people are going to criticize things. Every fan is critical, its what constitutes being a fan. We want KU to win it all every year or come damn close.
If we were happy with one national title every 20 years, we wouldn’t be KU fans. This is an elite program, and fair or unfair, we are going to throw ourselves into every little nuance of the team and its coaches.
Personally, I found your comment that Fetch’s post “isn’t interesting, educational, or useful” to be offensive, especially to someone who (like you said, for free) spends a lot of time writing recaps on our basketball team that myself and a lot of other people enjoy. Lumping that sort of post as worthy of the KC Star section is an even lower blow.
Shit happens when you win championships
You're allowed to do whatever you want
You’re allowed to argue that the players should dribble with their foreheads instead of their hands. People might criticize and say they found that opinion unenlightening, but you’d be well within your rights.
Unless somebody is arguing that Self loses in the tournament because he doesn’t have a deep enough bench or because he’s not playing his best players, I don’t really see what relevance losses to Bucknell and Northern Iowa have to do with the argument that Merv Lindsey should be playing more than Conner Teahan. Self wins more games than any other coach. He knows what he’s doing with his use of players.
And although I don’t imagine it was read this way by anyone who wasn’t reflexively taking the opposite position to anything I posted, I will clarify that I generally like Fletch’s wrap ups and I liked this one as well. There was a component of it I disliked. I had an idea on how to improve that, so I shared it. I’m pretty sure that’s the way this place is supposed to work.
I think if you don't agree with the analysis that Self is mismanaging PT, then
the idea is you would argue against it and defend your position that Self is doing things correctly.
You sort of mention this in your second comment (“trying to find out why that opinion is wrong”), but the first one sounded like you were arguing for throwing out the bathwater and assuming there was no baby – basically, your argument read as “Self is automatically more right about every bit of playing time b/c he is a very successful coach”.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 4, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Self wins a huge number of games, therefore Self is likely to be optimizing his resources
The argument here seems to boil down to “things would be better if Withey played more against small lineups, and Tharpe and Lindsey played more in general and Teahan played less in general.”
My response is that Self, due to his track record and due to his access to information is likely to be closer to the optimal allocation of minutes than anyone else. If somebody wants to argue otherwise, they ought to supply some information supporting it, preferably information that Self doesn’t have access to or that he is known to disregard. Otherwise, the strong presumption in favor of Self being correct carries the day. Since I don’t have access to Self’s information or his thinking, I can’t lay out those reasons, but the presumption that he is correct stands in for those reasons.
I didn’t see UND game because I was travelling back from the holidays, but after the Davidson game, when there was questioning about why Withey played so little, I posted about the specific reasons Withey was pulled (http://www.rockchalktalk.com/2011/12/20/2648311/a-semi-statistical-recap-of-davidson#86259581) and Warden built an excellent, substantial post addressing just that point. I referenced Warden’s post repeatedly in this thread because I think it shows the right way to go about these things — assume that, when you and Self differ, he is right and try to understand why. If you still can’t understand, throw it out for discussion.
For example, here's why Self played the starters so much on Saturday
Alabama talked about losing the hustle plays and the rebounding battle, and Kansas coach Bill Self has been emphasizing this part of the game since polishing off North Dakota on Saturday.Actually, Self drove home the point during the game, keeping some on the bench instead of rewarding them with playing time. The message was that important. Kansas State is that aggressive.
http://www.kansas.com/2012/01/04/2161666/ksu-preview-leaves-four-ku-players.html#storylink=omni_popular
That's a good tidbit from the author, I wish he would have elaborated a little.
In particular, cite what made him so sure about the exact reason(s) they were on the bench. Maybe it’s a Self comment to the press that I’m not aware of.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 4, 2012 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
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