Kansas Jayhawk News and Notes 1.11.12
by Owen on Jan 11, 2012 3:00 AM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk News and Notes
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Kansas Basketball
Bill Self, KU wary of Billy Gillispie, Texas Tech | KUsports.com
I think we're all wary of playing inferior teams in Lubbock.
Midseason All-Americans: Henson, McDermott, MKG play way to top - NCAA Basketball - Sporting News
Midseason recognition for Thomas Robinson
Gillispie starting from scratch at Texas Tech | CJOnline.com
Pat couldn't keep going what Bobby had somewhat built and now Billy rebuilds.
Old coaching friends Self and Gillispie get reacquainted - KansasCity.com
Bill Self had moved from Oral Roberts to Tulsa and needed an assistant coach with a recruiting roadmap of Texas. He hired Gillipsie.
Kansas Football
Former Mangino assistant Clint Bowen to return as part of Charlie Weis’ staff | KUsports.com
So this is news.
What's causing the delay in KU's quest to hire a defensive coordinator? | Tale of the Tait | KUsports.com
Everyone is beginning to ask themselves this question.
Josh Eidson And Juney Barnett Added To Kansas Football Strength And Conditioning Staff - KANSAS OFFICIAL ATHLETIC SITE
A couple new members of the strength staff.
Big 12
Baylor owns crunch time in 75-73 win over K-State | KUsports.com
Winning in Manhattan isn't going to be an easy task. Baylor just picked up a big conference road win in chasing their goal of a conference title.
College Basketball
UNC pushes its way to a No. 1 seed, more bracket predictions - Andy Glockner - SI.com
Just another bracketology. Kansas a #3, Indiana at the #2, Syracuse the #1 and K-State the #4.
College Basketball Power Rankings: Syracuse Stays No. 1 For Fifth Straight Week - SBNation.com
#11 in the power rankings. Tyshawn twittergate getting more run.
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Reading the comments of Tait's story
Sounds like Darrian Miller is not happy about the recruitment of a JUCO All-American RB. Also sounds like he’s gone.
And Clint Bowen as DC and ST coach? I’d be happy with that (not as happy as Leavitt, but oh well). If only because that hire will inflame the masses.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
Wha?
are grades an issue? Did I miss something?
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
is HCCW forcing him out?
I’m really flummoxed by bigreed’s comment there.
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
that was according to himself...
I believe he tweeted it out there or something a couple weeks ago.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Kind of my point.
Not calling the kid a liar but when things don’t add up, well ya know.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Until we hear something from Weis
I don’t put much stock in any of the reports out there, especially something in the kusports.com comments.
Great win by Baylor...
I really wasn’t sure they had it in them, but all credit to them for stealing one in Manhattan. Now that being said… K-State was abysmal down the stretch. You can crash the boards the keep you in games, but at some point, you’re going to have to execute in the half court and they simply can’t do that. Pullen was able to mask this flaw for them, but McGruder won’t be able to. They’ll win their share of games, because they’re a solid team, but I don’t see them winning many close ones.
Don't know if you saw the immediate post game interview
but Frank Martin was not a happy man. I thought he was going to slug the reporter. He was so mad at his players for not executing down the stretch. Poor guy must shave 5-10 years off his life stressing as much as he does.
by MichiganJayHawk on Jan 11, 2012 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
I know we wondered if Martin was going to lose his team last year and he proved us wrong,
I wonder even more about it this year.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
This is the year where we find out how good a coach Martin is
In my opinion, he is a good coach, but he isn’t near the level KState fans make him out to be. KSU lost for so many years, and got delusional when Martin started taking them to the tournament.
For the first time, the guy doesn’t have a go-to scorer on offense. And Pullen was a beast. So was Clemente. So was Beasley.
Like I said, he is a good coach. But this is his year to prove he can win without a superstar. It’ll be interesting to see how KSU does over the next few weeks. Going 1-2 against KU, MU, Baylor isn’t that bad. But can they avoid bad upsets, road losses, etc? We’ll see.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
McGruder
is a pretty good option actually. He’s more like Releford in that it doesn’t come naturally though.
He is a good player
But he isn’t anywhere near the level of the go-to guys they had in the past.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
Without looking at too many stats
I’d take him over Clemente.
If McGruder could get his 3-point shot back, I probably would too
Clemente loved to jack-up awful 3s, and he was worthless on rebounds. However, he was the only actual PG Martin’s had so far, even if he did like to shoot too much.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Clemente was Clarence Gilbert
I’ll take McGruder even without a 3 point shot for a guy that gave up as many possessions as he executed on.
MacGruder's either a Pullen replacement who can't shoot 3's,
or a Clemente replacement who can’t break down defenses (i.e. get assists).
Maybe
Clemente and McGruder made appx the same number of shots (Clemente’s sr vs McGruder’s jr) but McGruder takes 3 fewer shots. McGruder is also a far better rebounder and defensive player.
Clemente was a good PG, let's not forget that all over again.
I’m not sure what McGruber is a good one of. Defender? Short 3 pretending to be a combo guard?
He’d better be a good defender, with 31.6 3P% and 9.7 ARate.
me too
if McGruder wore blue instead of purple everyone on here would love him.
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
I really like McGruder...
But I like him as a third banana… not the guy I need to win a game for me. And since they may or may not run an offense, they’re in desperate need of a guy that can win a game for them in crunch time situations.
by hiphopopotamus on Jan 11, 2012 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
I would think that with Martin's "system" (I'm going to sneer at it until his team actually plays well for a whole goddamned game) you wouldn't need a star
His “plan” (such as it is) is built on tough defense, rebounds, and sharing the ball to take good shots. I don’t think you need a star to make that plan work. As the loss to Wisky in the NCAA tourney showed, having a star can actually hurt his system because everyone else goes into a shell and let’s the star try to do everything himself.
As we saw last night this team is about as sporadic as they come. The came out and hammered Baylor to start both halves, and then went into a shell. I don’t know what it is about Martin, but he simply can’t keep the focus going for a full game. Even if the few blowouts KSU has had this season, they always let the team back into the game (MU, Long Beach State, UTEP). I don’t like that early in the season they were a 2nd half team, but now they’re not even that. They’re a 5 minutes team.
KU was crushing the Cats early in the game, and yet some smart play from KSU and some incredibly stupid plays by KU let the Cats back into it. Then the Cats (who are perennially unable to guard white guys) let Teahan end the game, and then they rolled over and died.
I couldn’t even watch all of last night’s trash, I knew Martin was being out-coached by douchebag Drew and pissing away a chance to stay in the conference race. Now (as always, barring injuries) KSU will fight with MU for 3rd in the conference as KU and Baylor fight for the title.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Is this really so bad though?
“KSU will fight with MU for 3rd in the conference as KU and Baylor fight for the title.”
If KU or Baylor wins the Big 12 title and gets, say a third seed, and KSU gets third or fourth and gets a 4-5 seed, who cares? Conference titles mean jack shit in basketball. We win it every year, and no one outside of the KU fanbase even talks about it.
Seriously, KU won its 7th in a row last year and it wasn’t a headline on ESPN. Just merely mentioned in the game notes. Now had Kentucky, UNC or Duke done this it would have gotten its own 30 for 30, but point remains – it just doesn’t mean a whole lot. If you finish in the top 4 in your conference, you are dancing and have a pretty good seed. With the crapshoot that is the NCAA tournament, that is all you need.
I think KState fans need to appreciate that they are in the top portion of the league every year and a mainstay in the tournament. A lot of other schools would kill to be in their position, and those schools don’t even have to share a state with a top 5 national program.
As KU football showed, success can disappear, and quicker than you ever thought possible.
Like I said earlier, going 1-2 against the three best teams in the league (one of those being in Lawrence where no one wins) isn’t anything to hang your head about. Its the next couple weeks, when KSU plays the OUs, OSUs, TTechs, etc that will show the true character, especially on the road. If KState takes care of business, they’ll be in good shape. If they drop a few and the problems you mentioned turn out to be legitimate flaws, well…ignore my previous statements.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't speak for KState fans...
But I think fighting for 3rd or 4th is a bad thing for them. Every KState fan I’ve talked to wants their program on our level. That starts by winning conference titles. Their best seasons in recent history, they still were over shadowed by KU. In order for them to get out of our shadow, they need to start finishing ahead of us. I think a lot of KState fans saw this season as a chance for that (it’s a down season for us).
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 11:08 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Exactly
Everyone knows the NCAA tourney is a complete crap-shoot. Who really thinks VCU, Butler, UConn, and I don’t care who the 4th was, were the 4 BEST teams in college basketball last year? Sometimes the best teams do indeed win – KU’s 08 title, Florida’s 2nd title for example, but not enough.
In football, KU fans don’t (I would think) want to be on K-State’s level, they want to be on OU’s, winning so many conference titles they get bored.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
KU football...
Of course I would accept KU being on KState’s level in football, but just like you said I want OU’s level.
Back to basketball…KU fans and conference titles, we take them for granted. Most KU fans have be spoiled and its expected. KU would need a run like we had in the 80’s for fans to appreciate them again. We only won 1 in that decade. I’m not saying this is right, but it’s true. I still take pride in conference titles, even if other fans don’t.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 11:49 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, but only a few programs in the country are on OU's level
KState fans want KState to go from bottom of the league (Woolridge years) to KU level. KU is a whole ’nother stratosphere. Not many teams get there.
I think KState could become a Wisconsin type (sorry I’m from there, I know you don’t want to be compared to them) who is consistent year in and year out, constantly at the top of the league and comfortably in the big dance.
You aren’t going to be a KU, or a Kentucky, or a Duke, etc. It just likely isn’t ever happening.
Just like in football, KU is never going to be an Oklahoma, or a Texas. And that is why I wouldn’t bitch if we had success like KState has had in football and want more. I know that is the top of the mountain for us.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
There's a lot of room between "happy with 3rd place" and "winning seven straight championships"
I want KU to get (or at least play for) at least an occasional championship in football even if I know we’re never going to be Oklahoma.
Easy. There are some who believe hardware's coming in football in the next two years.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Easy?
Which part was excessively pessimistic?
I’m getting pretty excited about Weis, but I’m still not expecting him to turn us into OU. Am I in the minority on that?
My biggest complaint about your comment...
Although it’s highly unlikely, you said we’d never be like Oklahoma. It is possible just not likely. KU with its basketball program has proved that you can win championships at KU. I don’t see any reason why it can’t happen in football. Is it likely no. And I also understand it would take 30 years of excelling to get us on the level of OU. But to say it’ll never happen, I don’t like that. I still “believe.” Am I still aloud to say that?
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We could be Oregon
or Okie State. But never OU or Nebraska. Just like KState could be UConn or Florida but never KU.
or Silo
I’d be thrilled to be as successful as Bill Snyder-era KState. Turning the corner from that to Oregon or whatever would be possible but at this point it’s hard to imagine. I’d be thrilled with border-line top 25 football, which is how I would think KState fans would look at basketball.
I agree about Oregon or OKSt, but
one huge difference b/t them and us is big, BIG money. (I think Oregon is actually very similar, and should be a model for KU’s recovery.)
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 11, 2012 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
Phil Knight
isn’t walking through that door.
by bigreed on Jan 11, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think becoming OU would take 50 years of consistent winning
It’s possible but it’s highly unlikely, especially since we’re going to have to do that while competing against OU and UT.
I’d be thrilled if we can become K-State in football, even though the Ron Prince episode made clear how far they still are from being OU.
If you “believe,” more power to you. You’re “aloud” to believe. You’re even allowed to state your belief aloud.
Thank you for correcting that...
3 hours of sleep in the last 2 days is getting to me.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It was a jerk thing of me to do
I try to resist the urge usually. Not sure why I didn’t this time.
ha ha...
Like I told warden below, it doesn’t bother me. Other boards you get 20 people yelling at you for forgetting a period.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Nothing was excessively pessimistic.
More of a snarky remark about those who have said we’re going bowling this year and going to be competing for the conference in a couple years. It’s not a common belief but I’ve read it enough to be sick of it already.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Oh you'd be surprised
at how realistic KU football fans are. KU will never be OU in football just as KState will never be KU in basketball. Doesn’t mean you can’t be competitive and have very fun seasons.
"I think KState fans need to appreciate that they are in the top portion of the league every year and a mainstay in the tournament."
We do appreciate it, but like any fan base, we’re not satisfied with good, we want great. I know you think conference titles are “jack shit” but that comes from having so many it’s hardly something to brag about any more (same with OU fans in football).
I counter that by saying conference titles are huge for everyone outside of those top-5 programs nationally, and even NC and Dook likely take pride in theirs because of their rival program they’re constantly fighting with. KU’s probably more similar to Kentucky (under slime-ball) and Memphis, because there hasn’t been much competition, and all you want is NCAA tourney success.
As I said last week (I think), if KSU was to win the conference this year and then get bounced in the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney (those play-in games can kiss my butt!), I would remember this season for the conference title (and probably buy a t-shirt). If KU did the same thing, you wouldn’t want to remember the season because getting bounced so soon. I’m sure not all KSU fans share my opinion of a successful season, but dammit, I want a conference title!
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
I know I take conference titles for granted
And most of that comes from winning them every year, and the fact that the Big 12 usually only has a few decent teams (compared to the Big East, ACC).
But, KState fans are guilty of a lot of this. When we beat you THREE times in 2010, went 15-1 and won the Big 12 AND the Big 12 tournament, all we heard was “yeah well KState went further than you in the tournament! KState finished higher!”
KSU fans can’t have it both ways. A lot of that also pairs with my own insecurities with KU’s tournament failures, and how we only have one final 4. The title was amazing, and I sleep every night in a 2008 national champions t-shirt (well almost every night), but we should have at least two other Final 4 births.
I guess a lot of it is just unless you win it all, you end your season with a loss. It isn’t like football where you can be an “Orange Bowl champion” or even “Fort Worth Bowl champion” or “chicken-fil-a.com.orgeasternseaboardallianceofchicken” bowl champion.
Point being, I just think KState fans should enjoy the ride. Your fanbase (in basketball) is guilty of comparing everything to KU. Did we beat KU? Did we finish higher? Did KU lose to someone? Obviously that will happen in a rivalry, but we are both going to be in the NCAA tournament, when it really matters.
In 50 years from now, KU’s recent conference titles will be in small print on the lone “league titles” banner hanging from the rafters. But that huge “NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: 2008” banner will still be there, predominantly displayed. I think its a fitting way to see what really matters, or at least what people remember.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
I'd put the Big 12's depth up against the ACC's almost any year
We might not have as many teams in the top 10, but I think we’ve been consistently placing more teams in the tournament since they went to 12 teams
So we have a few more that get in, so what.
The ACC has Duke and UNC who have massive recent hardware. Throw in a random title by Maryland, a few years of success from other schools, and there you go.
The Big 12 is Kansas. Texas has one Final 4 birth, as does OU and OSU. Those were all 9-12 years ago. Other than that… its Kansas. A random elite 8 run by Mizzou or KSU every 10-20 years doesn’t boost the overall profile.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Titles
and strength of conference have little to do with each other.
The national title is a great accomplishment for sure, but the best team doesn’t always (probably relatively rarely) wins the national championship. When you’re talking about winning over a 16 game schedule I don’t care what the teams end up doing in a 1-and-out tournament but rather how good they are period.
I guess my point is the tournament is a terrible barometer for how hard it is to beat a team.
Ok, thats fine
But its what people remember. You think now, let alone in 10 years anyone outside of Kansas fans or our hardcore rivals will remember how good the 2010 team was? That team had two losses entering the tournament, owned the league… and lost in the second round.
All they’ll remember, if anything, is Farhokamenoyusha;lshskdelahihhses’s shot when its shown on CBS… when tournament season shows up.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
I could care less
what people remember. Maybe that’s the point. I want to win for us not for what Louisville fans will say about us.
What point are you arguing?
You said that the fact that the Big 12 has only a few decent teams makes the conference titles worth less.
Now you’re saying that the fact that we lost in the tournament makes a great regular season less memorable.
All of this in the context of saying that K-State should be pleased with a 3rd place finish in conference and a tournament berth.
I can not follow this string of argument at all.
I'm arguing that until our opponents do anything on a national level
i.e. national titles, final 4s, etc I’m not willing to sign off on the Big 12 being some dominant league. And that people always remember the tournament before all else, at least on a national level.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree
with your criteria of what a dominant league is. See below for the ratings of the conferences. With as large of numbers as we’re talking here (16 game seasons over 8 years, etc) aggregate numbers are much more valuable than opinions.
Because they aren't KU
My point was you guys aren’t Kansas, you should be happy you are in the tournament every year. Especially with how much of a crapshoot in tournament is.
Look at 2010. They made the tournament with a decent seed, got hot and made the Elite 8. Didn’t matter if they had a conference title or not.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
They should be happy to have a chance at a crapshoot?
Even if they can’t win a crummy conference? This is what they should aspire too?
My point is they have almost as good a shot as KU does
KU was a one seed that year, KSU was what… a 2? No worse than a 3.
Point is it is a 64 (now 68) team single elimination tournament. Lots of parity too. I don’t see a big difference between winning the league and being a one or two seed, or getting second and third and being a 2-4 seed.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
Especially when in the third round
1 plays 4 and 2 plays 3, according to chalk
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
All things
that make it a terrible barometer of general program strength.
Because it's an accomplishment
to win more games over a 16 game schedule than anyone else. It means you’re the best team in the a very good conference of rivals.
You post a stat showing the last 20 champs have been 1 or 2 in the conf
And you say that KSU finishing 3rd has the same chance as a team that wins the conference every year.
I also think the 1 seeds have significantly better tournament records than 3-4 seeds.
Its not as good a chance, no
My original point was its hard to be KU, not many teams get there. If I was a KSU, ISU, OSU, TAMU, etc fan… and my team was a top 3-4 seed every year, I would be thrilled.
Just like if KU football won 7-9 games a year I would be thrilled. I wouldn’t be saying “dammit why aren’t we winning 10 plus games every season!”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Which is great
but getting hot one year isn’t what you hope for your team. Consistent winning is. Which all flows back to the argument about what we want to do in football.
How does # of Final Four berths measure the number of "decent teams"
I think the tournament is over-emphasized in general in measuring the quality of seasons, but I see how reasonable minds can differ there. However, I think it is definitely a mistake to use tournament performance to measure the difficulty of winning a regular season conference title, and I also don’t see why Final Four berths would be the measure of “decent” teams.
Because it shows the teams KU beats on a consistent basis
Aren’t good to make any noise nationally. In the Big 12’s pinnacle of strength, there were multiple teams making deep runs. KU and Texas in a final four. KU and OU. KU and OSU. The 2001-2004 range.
Recently, KU not only wins the league every year, but its opponents don’t do anything. Texas with Kevin Durant finished second in the league and lost in the second round. Sure, you have some occasional elite 8 runs (KSU has one, MU has one, Baylor has one) but thats about it.
I think the tournament is over-emphasized too, and like I said I’m more arguing this from a non-KU fans’ viewpoint to spark some good debate. But its hard to label the Big 12 as a great league when year after year, the only good non-con wins are from KU. And, no other team but KU has crashed a final 4 recently.
Hell, even non-AQ leagues have more teams that have made a final 4 than the big 12.
Yes its a poor barometer, but people remember the tournament above all else.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
They make plenty of noise nationally
KenPom Conference Ratings over the last 8 years
Atlantic Coast Conference 0.8832125 1
Big East Conference 0.8586625 2
Big 12 Conference 0.85375 3
Big Ten Conference 0.84725 4
Southeastern Conference 0.8326 5
Pac 10 Conference 0.811475 6
I'd hope we are better than the Pac10 and SEC
And I’m talking more about general perception, and how the ACC winning 3 out of 5 titles, 5 out of 9 (or whatever it was) will make people look at their league a lot stronger.
Happens in football too. OMG, the last 6 national champions are from the SEC…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
The ACC is good
that doesn’t mean winning 8 in a row in the Big 12 isn’t a major accomplishment.
I have also gotten a far different feeling of national perception but I wouldn’t care anyway. Facts are more relevant to this conversation than trash talk from random fans.
I really thought the Big 12 was better as a conference than the ACC.
Ah well.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
I'll take a 30-game regular season over a 6-game tournament for quality of data every time
Nobody is going to give Cleveland State huge points for winning the Horizon League this year just because the league has back to back championship game appearances.
No serious fan thinks Pitt is a crappy team just because they can’t get over the hump in the tournament.
People who only watch basketball in March might make their decisions on what they see in March, but real fans take the whole 5 months into account.
KU hangs banners for Final 4s though
You make the tournament, win 4 games in a row… you get a banner.
Look at any school’s profile. They list national titles, then final 4s. Like it or not, it is used as a huge measuring stick by many to gauge a program’s success.
We can argue against it, I’m just saying it exists and there is a reason why (albeit maybe not the best reason).
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
Of course it's important
but it’s not more important to the general strength of a program. Because that’s what we’re talking about here.
No one wants 1 orange bowl year and 9 4 win seasons (OK, maybe we do). We want to consistently win 7 or 8 games with a 10 win season here and there.
This is what KSU fans would probably want as well- it’s basketball equivalent. It’s actually pretty close to what they’ve had under Martin.
But, like you said, they already have that
Like I told Sean T, you should always want more from your team. But enjoy the ride. You are consistently in the tournament as a high seed now. You’ve got a shot at a run every year. Enjoy it.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
Agree with all of this
and perhaps it’s where football falls short as an analogy. Generally it’s a pretty terrible excuse for poor attendance (granted in 1 game), as they’re probably as good now as they’re ever going to get consistently.
My point in general is that i’d much rather win 8 conference titles in a row than win 1 national championship and be irrelevant the rest of the years. Even if you only care about the tournament, winning the Big 12 means you’re a strong national title contender.
I wouldn't want us to have irrelevant seasons either
Its amazing that Self rarely has much of a dropoff every year. His “bad seasons” are a dream season for many.
I just feel that
1) KU doesn’t get the pub it deserves due to a recent shortage (for lack of a better term) of national hardware.
2) The Big 12 needs more teams other than KU to make some noise consistently for the league to get the pub the ACC and Big East get.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
KU gets TONS of pub
the only basketball programs that get more pub are Duke and Carolina. UConn has more hardware and gets considerably less pub. I want more hardware but we will still be right there with Kentucky as far as pub. Those are the rules of ESPN, we just live here.
Oh we do
I just feel like we’ve kind of taken a clear backseat to UNC and Duke recently. I don’t like it.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
I think the tournament is a crapshoot
So we shouldn’t use tournament results to determine whether teams were good enough to make any noise nationally.
Have they changed the banners?
There’s just one league titles banner now?
I always liked the Mo Valley, Big Six, Big Seven, Big Eight and Big Twelve Conference Championship banners hanging side by side. I loved seeing the stretches of absolute dominance. I’d much prefer conference championship banners to hanging Sweet Sixteen banners or something like that.
agreed
one banner for each champ is pretty impressive visually
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 11, 2012 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
But, KState fans are guilty of a lot of this. When we beat you THREE times in 2010, went 15-1 and won the Big 12 AND the Big 12 tournament, all we heard was "yeah well KState went further than you in the tournament! KState finished higher!"
Andrew, I think this is just part of it. Look, we’ve made it abundantly clear on this thread that KU’s program is above K-State’s in stature, so why wouldn’t they have these reactions? Is it annoying? Yes. But if it didn’t happen like that then we wouldn’t be rivals. In college sports, the better program is always going to be pompous and arrogant about beating the lesser program, and the lesser program is always going to overreact to wins or moral wins (going further in the tournament). Personally, I like being on the side we’re on.
by I need more Esteban on Jan 11, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Easy to take them for granted now
We didn’t see seven in a row or the sheer number under LB and the early days of Roy. Of course, the Big Eight was more competitive with Norm, Johnny Orr, Kruger, Tubbs and Sutton.
Meh
I think you misremember the Big 8. The Big 12 has been a top 3 league every year of the run with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. That’s every bit as good as the Big 8.
Seems that a lot of KU fans on here undervalue the conference dominance which surprises me.
Maybe - but I think it's undervaluing Self
and his winning seven in a row. I know the younger fans do.
I love our conference dominance
I just don’t see what it gets us nationally. Sure, its fun to talk shit to KState and Missouri fans, but our program is head and shoulders above theirs.
If you ask any fan, casual or non, who has a better program: Kansas or North Carolina? Kansas or Duke? What will their answer be? It won’t be Kansas.
Why? Those teams have crashed more Final 4s recently and have some recent national titles. We have one, which is awesome. I want more.
I want KU to be feared and reverred more on a national level, like all the fawning and glorification that Tobacco road teams get. And winning the Big 12 every year doesn’t do it.
Like I said, not even a front page mention AFTER THE SEVENTH ONE IN THE ROW. I mean… COME ON
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
KU is feared and revered on a national level
there’s really no debate about it.
KU will NEVER get the pub that Duke and Carolina get. Has way more to do with ESPN and each other than it does with anything else.
There was a big gap between 1952 and 1988
And a whole generation between 1988 and 2008. Can KU win another one before 2018? Maybe.
Yes, UNC and Duke are more successful from the Final Four/national title category, but that’s all really in the past 30 years.
Historically speaking, KU, UCLA, Indiana and Kentucky are just as revered and feared as the ACC powers. But ESPN loves them (and the Big East) more.
Comparing the Big 12
to Conference USA and the SEC is kind of rough. We’ve won a lot of titles but it’s not because there’s been no competition. There has been competition and Self has been phenomenally successful at beating that competition.
We get bored with conference titles but dominating this conference is a far bigger accomplishment than winning CUSA or SEC (which, Kentucky has only won once under Calipari btw).
This
There’s no reason to minimize KU’s accomplishment by claiming the Big 12 has been weaker than it has been. All through the run, the Big 12 has been among the top conferences in the country.
If you were looking for evidence that KSU has become a football school, you could do worse than one of their more knowledgeable fans comparing Big 12 basketball to C-USA basketball.
by KSinDC on Jan 11, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didnt take it as him saying the Big 12 was weak...
I took it as him saying KU is just on a different level then all our competition.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
But we're not
we just win.
There’s plenty of elite D1 seasons going on in the Big 12. Ours have just been better.
I know it’s semantics but thinking of it as ’we’re on another level’ doesn’t give the players credit for winning.
I think in the Big 12 KU is, because of the consistency and change in players that don't affect the on-court performance
Yeah, Barnes can derp his way into a stud at UT that carries, or OU can get Griffin. In a given season, no, KU hasn’t always been head and shoulders above the rest of the league, but through the 7 years, KU certainly has been.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
I believe we are on a different level...
I’m not down playing the fact that there are elitwle D1 seasons goin on. We just maintain ours. That’s the deference in an elite program and season. We have to fight every year for ours, but we are on a different level. We have elite players playing for us every season. We have elite coaches coaching those players. I’m not saying that a team isn’t on our level for a season or two, but they aren’t there every season. Us being able to maintain our dominance is why I say we’re on a different level.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
mistype...
Hit the w instead of the e. Went to delete the w and hit the l and typed the e.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I still have no idea. Going to have to read it again.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
yeah sorry...
I thought you knew what I meant but were just poking fun at the typo. Sorry I didn’t add it in the other one.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
A little of both actually.
I was making fun of the mistype but couldn’t tell what it was supposed to be. Don’t mind me though, I’m just bored at work on a Wednesday afternoon.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
It doesnt bother me...
This board is a lot more forgiving then others.
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 1:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not really clear how KU can be on a different level without the rest of the Big 12 being weak
The Big 12 is among the best conferences in the country every year. Some of that is KU but some of that is the other 3-6 teams that the conference is sending to the tournament each year. C-USA was sending, at most, one team other than Memphis.
This
The Big 12 conference is in a virtual tie with the BE as the 2nd best conference in the nation over the last 8 years. Winning in this league every single year is much more about coaching and effort than it is about somehow being on a ‘different level’.
How is the Big 12 that good?!
KU is the only team to make a final 4 in the last 9 years for crying out loud! And they’ve made one.
Note: This isn’t necessarily how I feel at all, again just giving you the perception the rest of the country has for us.
We all love the Big 12 because we play in it, we own it, most of us live in Big 12 country. But the rest of the country sees Kansas, and then maybe Texas due to the NBA players they have produced. Thats it.
College basketball revolves around a crapshoot tournament. Titles and Final 4s. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but it is what it is.
The Big 12 has one national title. The ACC had two in a row recently.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
That's not the perception
of any basketball fan. It’s just not. Strength of conference has more to do with 4-8 than it does 1-4.
Really?
Because I don’t care about 4-8. A lot of those teams aren’t even making the tournament.
Hell, the Big 12 has had teams go 10-6 in league play and not make the NCAA tournament.
I care about the powers, because I care about who is good enough to win it all. And any team that finishes 4-8 in its conference isn’t good enough to win it all.
In fact, I’m almost positive that the past 20 or so NCAA champions finished first or second in their league. Someone posted that stat here a while back. UConn last year broke it, but before that its pretty shocking.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
They were the one seed in big east tournament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Big_East_Men’s_Basketball_Tournament
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
And you beat me to it.
Popped up right as I hit post. Doh!
I think only the most casual basketball fans look only a national titles
by KSinDC on Jan 11, 2012 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I always stop listening
when people only want to talk about the tournament.
by bigreed on Jan 11, 2012 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, yes, yes!
If you start paying attention to NCAA hoops on Selection Sunday and only give credit to those who make the tournament semifinal and final, you’re not a serious fan.
!! My bad. I thought Kentucky had been crushing and killing in the SEX conference
Nevermind.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Winning the conference
even that conference requires a steady hand on the bench. Cal’s only been there 3 years though. 33% of the time he wins the horse crap conference. No one can win their conference every year. Well except Self.
I believe it's the sex with relatives conference
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
Jason King's take
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/44230/baylor-stays-undefeated-with-75-73-win-over-k-state
Says it’s the best game he’s seen all year
What was up
With all the empty seats? I was a little surprised that #4 in the nation doesn’t mean sellout the week students come back.
Heisman winner
definitely makes you a football school
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
Was referring to K-State
Baylor’s making a run for best overall program. Football, men’s and women’s basketball all strong. They’re also traditionally good at baseball and softball. Big year for them.
I think it is when the team doesn't piss all over themselves giving a game away (twice) against a team they had beat
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Students aren't back quite yet. Manhattan is still very quiet and the dorms won't open until Saturday.
But I was disappointed to see so many empty seats too. I wanted to buy tickets but the ones I would consider (that don’t require donation of a kidney) were all snapped up really early.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Does KState
make the student tickets General Admission during winter break?
I know I got a chance to see a couple games at AFH for $20 a ticket because student tix are avail to the general public when school is not in session.
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
I know the Howard speed-bump game was, and there were 3 games right in the middle of break last year that were GA, because students don't care about speed-bumps
However, I don’t think they’ll do that for conference games because I would imagine that the students would get angry (with some justification) about their “season ticket package” not including the most important games of the season.
I wasn’t thrilled the Cats started at KU (why can’t KSU start conference at TT or ISU?) on January 4th, but I’m glad the game was in Lawrence and not Manhattan because I’m really not sure how many students would have been there ):
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
KU students made their way to AFH on Jan. 4
and if the game had been at AFH West, they may have found their way into the GA section there, too.
by jayhawk1996 on Jan 11, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
No one is comparing it to AFH
but that was a big game and the fans weren’t helping as much as they should.
D'oh, I didn't mention that the GA games I listed were all those two weeks closest to Christmas
I think the GA tickets end right after new-years.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Probably something to mention to the marketing dept and ticket office
Have to give props to Frank Martin – he’s upped the attendance numbers for their home games. Seems like nearly every conference game is a near full house. That wasn’t the case in under other regimes. Winning helps, but so does having a coach like Frank who appreciates the fans support.
by jayhawk1996 on Jan 11, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
student tickets are often
available to the general public after the pickup date passes. They go up on kuathletics.com and don’t usually last long.
Well,
I got an email from KU today saying they still have tickets available for our game against Baylor on Big friggin’ Monday, so maybe it’s not just K-State. Not saying Big Monday won’t be a sellout (I’m sure it will be), but we don’t exactly have much room to talk right now.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
That's awful
This game is for the conference title and we don’t sell it out?
What about the students? Will the dorms be open? Or is this like the stunt they pulled my senior year where ticket pick up for MU was in the middle of finals week so almost none of us got our tickets?
Classes start the next day
Guessing the students didn’t pick up all their tickets for that round since it included several games over the break. Still, it will be full at tipoff on Monday night.
WHAT IN GOD'S NAME IS GOING ON HERE!!
Everyone get back to work before you get fired!
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Never
We have important things to hammer out.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I work nights...
Might get fired for lack of sleep. But that’s not RC T’s fault
by hawkinwichita on Jan 11, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
You've got a Wildcat on the board, getting a bunch of feathers all ruffled (but not intentionally)
You’re welcome.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
No ruffled feathers
by little brother. Just a long condescending conversation about how you guys SHOULD feel. Kind of rude when I think about it.
I refuse to be polite to opposing fanbases
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously
I just checked in, saw the 100+ unread count on this thread, and thought, “Oh God, what has happened? Did we hire Tebow to be part-time QB coach or Marty Schottenheimer to be D-Coordinator or something crazy like that?”
Nope, just a freakin’ thread about K-State.
The poster formerly known as DCJayhawk0208
To be fair, it isn't necessarily about KState
Just at the start, then its mainly about philosophy on conference strength, tournament, perception, etc.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2012 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
I think it's a good read
Lots of different perspectives.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
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