Does Kansas Basketball Have Small Forward Struggles?
by Owen on Jun 6, 2011 9:00 AM CDT
in Kansas Jayhawk Basketball 2010-11
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If you are a regular reader of KUSports.com most likely you have noticed the current Jayhawk all decade voting. Pretty straight forward, no major surprises and a good filler during the May to July black hole in college sports. But if you look a little closer there is one player bracket that seems to show an area that has been a challenge for Kansas at times.
The small forwards bracket at KUSports.com is less than impressive. Call it a wing, call it a small forward, call it whatever you want it's the guy on the team that can ideally knock down the outside shot but also get to the rim and mix it up on the interior if needed. Kansas just hasn't had many that have knocked it out of the park at the position and when they did, well the results speak to the importance.
The final two on the list consists of Brandon Rush and Xavier Henry. From an offensive standpoint and honestly overall, it isn't even close when you look at the rest of the field. To some extent that's a little disappointing when you remember that Henry was only in a Jayhawk uniform for one season and while it was a VERY good freshman season it wasn't really spectacular.
Alex Galindo? Nick Bradford? Bryant Nash? Travis Releford? Those are some of the names in the bracket. Galindo was at Kansas for one season, Relford hasn't even hit his stride yet and Bradford sits as the three seed? Nothing against any of those guys because they all did play a role with the Jayhawks but that's honestly a list that I'd expect a few other teams in the Big 12 to field but not necessarily the Kansas Jayhawks.
So is this the hold in the lineup that has led to missed expectations at times? Well when you consider that Rush and Henry were the wings on two teams that came up short in rather dubious fashion maybe this isn't the answer, but both were freshman at the time of their early exits.
Bill Self has always recruited and developed bigs, he seems to have a strong draw with the "combo guard" and point guard positions as well. But for whatever reason the wing spot has been a little more challenging at times for Kansas as a whole and that even goes back to the Roy Williams era. Is it just a more difficult position to recruit? Maybe there aren't as many players out there. And is it even important?
Either way there is one player that figures to fill this role in a prominent way for someone and his name is DeAndre Daniels. Kansas is still sitting and waiting, summer school is starting and still no word on the Daniels saga. At this point the best bet for Kansas is to have a player like Releford step up into this role or look toward another freshman already on campus in Ben McLemore who some have compared to JR Giddens. With less of a known scoring punch at the Jayhawks disposal heading into 2011-2012, the spot vacated by Brady Morningstar will need to play a more prominent role on some level.
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This position is just not a focus for Self
As long as we have 3 solid guards (and one or two of them can drive) , I don’t see it as a major concern. That said, I would really like to see Releford show more of his early season flashes next year. If can put together a season work like that, we should be able to win another Big 12(-2) Title.
Interesting thought that the National Championship team had the position filled.
I always drink the Kool-Aid
both bring up an interesting point...
and that’s what made me think of this. We don’t play a true 3, that seems to be the perception of Self and that’s the latest and greatest as to why Daniels is hesitating on Kansas.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
We don’t play a true 3, that seems to be the perception of Self and that’s the latest and greatest as to why Daniels is hesitating on Kansas.
If that’s truly the thought process out there, then I’m at a loss for words. There’s a reason 6’5" guys who can handle, defend and shoot are such a hot commodity in the NBA.
Interesting post and something I had not considered, but it does make some sense. But in what’s a pretty small sample size, I think I’d say it’s nothing more than coincidence. Counting 1998, we’ve had four small forwards go to the NBA (Pierce, Giddens, Rush, & Henry). As bt01 mentions, it’s pretty telling that we had this piece for our championship and I don’t think that’s lost on Self. If’s nice piece offensively, but it’s an absolute game-changer to have a true 3 that can defend.
by hiphopopotamus on Jun 6, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I just don't get this perception that we don't use a true three
We’ve had a true 3 6 of the 9 years Self has coached. We’ve landed monster recruits at the three (Giddens, Downs, Rush, Henry, McLemore, all 5 stars, Releford and Little 4 stars).
Teams use what they have, Self is no different. Look at Roy, he had a true three in Pierce, and then later used a three guard lineup when he lacked a three (the Miles, Hinrich, Boschee teams).
Self has recruited and signed a lot of very talented 3s, and played them when he had them.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jun 6, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
For the record...
I agree with both of you, I just read a blurb from that ZagsBlog guy out east saying that Daniels was still shopping around because they didn’t feel like Kansas featured a true 3.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
I'd argue...
that while Henry was a true 3 in body, he never really developed the slashing game, the same thing applies to Giddens in my mind. Brady wasn’t a real 3, and Mario played the 4 despite being more of a 3. That leaves Rush’s three years as having an elite 3. I wouldn’t really put it on Bill’s shoulders though, he has recruited the guys but they just haven’t really had the driving game, or they haven’t been around long enough to develop it.
Just because Henry didn't play like an ideal three
Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a three. The kid was a 6’5 wing, and was recruited to be a wing. Same applies for Rush, Downs, Giddens, Releford, etc.
A lot of these guys might have just poached outside and shot threes, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t wing players
Shit happens when you win championships
My argument is a little convoluted...
even in my head, But it seems to me that it is not necessarily whether Bill recruited great 3’s, it is about the impression that we haven’t had good 3’s (Rush notwithstanding). By this standard, if they didn’t play with a style that promotes both shooting and slashing to the basket during their time here, then I don’t really view them as an elite small forward, thus, the perception that we haven’t had great 3’s despite having 3 NBA players at the position in the last 9 years. Just because they have the typical body size and get better at the other aspect of their game (driving) down the road doesn’t mean to me that they were a true 3 while here.
I think expectations may be too high then
I mean, lets look at Henry. The kid was a really good shooter. Everyone kind of harped on his lack of driving/rim attacking/etc, but look at the offense. You had two guys starting at the guard spots who both excelled at driving to the basket (Collins, Taylor) and forwards who got the ball a lot as well (Aldrich, Morri). I thought Henry gave the offense exactly what we needed: a guy who could make threes and provide some good size and athleticism on defense. I mean, Henry averaged 13 points a game as a freshman for an absolutely loaded team. Pretty solid.
So someone like Henry may not have played like a “true three” to you, but they were successful in that role as a Jayhawk. Even further, Rush and Henry were both top 15 picks. Self just signed a McDonalds All-American three in McLemore. Releford is a true three and he has showed signs of being a pretty good player.
I guess I just don’t see what all the fuss is about. But its the off-season so I really enjoy debating miniscule aspects of Kansas sports, probably a little too much :)
Shit happens when you win championships
By that definiton, a ton of guys have been 3's.
A lot of these guys might have just poached outside and shot threes, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t wing players
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
You are missing the point
I’m arguing that Self has a pretty good track record bringing in players who are fit to play the three. Like I said, Rush, Downs, Galindo, Henry, Releford, Little etc were all thought to be wings/ threes, and most played there.
Just because a lot of them were relegated to being spot shooters doesn’t change the fact they were wing players, and that Self has recruited the position heavily. A lot of this article implied that we have ignored the small forward position, to which I disagree.
Plus, in the end, Self likes to have his best players out there and guys he trusts. Which is often why we saw Brady Morningstar on the wing instead of Travis Releford.
Shit happens when you win championships
And could be a reason why a guy like Daniels is looking around.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
One thing...
is that we don’t seem to play a true 3 on a lot of our teams. As a result, we are using a shooting guard in that position a lot of the time rather than a typical small forward. It’s been a while and I can’t quite remember, but didn’t Langford play the third guard rather than a straight up shooting guard? I would think he would be our #2 at the position if that was the case.
DeAndre might very well fall into the Xavier mold in that he might be good but not great and go pro after one year anyway. We got really lucky that Rush stayed as long as he did.
Langford played the two
Giddens played the three, and Michael Lee kind of filled in for both, from what I remember
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jun 6, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
don't forget
That purely from a talent perspective, JR Giddens was a borderline NBA level player. I see he lost out to Morningstar, probably because of a) the recency effect, b) the fact that most KU fans have an image of JR as a Guy who just hung out on the perimeter chucking threes, which isn’t really accurate, and c) JR left in disgrace.
You may not like him, but Giddens hung around the NBA a couple years, and were it not for his off-the-court issues, he’d be number 2 on this list, and we’d be talking about how we put 3 small forwards in the NBA in a ten year span.
by PenHawk on Jun 6, 2011 10:26 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Um
“b) the fact that most KU fans have an image of JR as a Guy who just hung out on the perimeter chucking threes, which isn’t really accurate”
It is entirely accurate for his sophomore season. As a freshman he played really well, got to the rim a lot while shooting well from outside. His sophomore year, he rarely took it inside and just hung around the three point line. Worse, he didn’t shoot it all too well.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jun 6, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I do agree though
That he really was a true wing, and he did have success at New Mexico. I think had he stuck around at KU (and not had all the off-court drama) he could have been a great Jayhawk
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Jun 6, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
once I can get in front of a computer
I’ll look up his statsheet for specifics, but I’ll tell you now that the numbers don’t agree with the portrait of his sophomore year you just painted. I’m not saying I didn’t want to see him get to the rim more often, but he wasn’t as ineffective as people remember him.
by PenHawk on Jun 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Both his freshman and sophomore years he shot a lot more 3's than he did his next 2 years.
Shot 5 more 3’s his soph than his frosh years and made 9 less, so not a big change in his game. FT rate did go from 9 his first two years to 28 and 38 his jr and sr seasons, showing he probably did a lot more attacking in those last two years than he did at Kansas.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I don't see much concern
Look at it this way, for five years we had true wings in Rush and Giddens. Then we grabbed a one and done for the wing. That is six years of having a true “small forward” and all three guys played professionally.
I’d also point out the factor of the Morris twins, especially Marcus. He played outside so frequently and was so versitile that it made having a Rush-like wing less important, IMHO.
Overall, its best to have options. Do you play a bigger guy at the three who can also get inside like a Jordan Hamilton, or a third guard? I think both have advantages and disadvantages, and Kansas usually has the option of using either lineup. Next year, for example, we could play Releford at the three and have more of a true wing (or McLemore) or use three guards
Shit happens when you win championships
Seems like my mind sees this as a much bigger weakness than everyone else.
A true three that can attack the rim, finish at the basket and in traffic, and defend a little bit would have made a tremendous difference over the last three years in the tournament. Our guards are super athletic but are undersized for finishing around the rim. Mario and McMorris both had a good face up game but lacked the quickness to guard opposing 3’s or attack the basket from the perimeter.
These guys don’t grow on trees but I’d love for one or two of them to end up in Lawrence sometime.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
There's an important player that isn't being included in this debate, IMO
Julian Wright. Yes, he played almost exclusively the 4 at KU, but he had prototypical NBA SF tools. If he had stayed around for another year or two, those skills would have become more consistent, and I really think he would have been a better NBA player. If he had, I think he wins this thing easily- Julian had (and still has) the ability to do things we’ve never seen before on a basketball court. Meanwhile, the “winner” of this bracket STILL hasn’t become a consistent dribbler with both hands, and STILL coasts through games, showing no interest in using his immense potential to dominate games.
In order to really analyze if this is a key problem for KU, though, I think you have to compare Jayhawk 3-men to other teams. Yes, Syracuse had Melo, and Texas had Durant. But has any team out there consistently had productive true small forwards?
This debate reminds me that we had a chance at getting Dirk Nowitzki straight out of high school, but pulled the schollie offer at the last minute for someone else. Damn it.
F.O.E.
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Jun 6, 2011 3:27 PM CDT reply actions
Yeah, what?
Elaboration pleeeeease. I had never heard that before and foaming at the mouth for knowledge
Shit happens when you win championships
Nowitzki was a top 10 pick and actually 'slid' to #9.
He may have flirted with colleges but he was never going to hook up with one.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
I don't think Daniels was concerned we won't feature him
He said we’re on his backburner because we haven’t developed wings very well. Which to some extent is true. It took Brandon three years to leave (with an injury that kept him an extra year), Jules has failed in the NBA as a SF and Xavier gets perceived as a college failure for whatever reason.
Then you have Giddens and Galindo who were pretty high recruits that couldn’t even make it through Kansas. I can see why people might think this.
I'm a little late to the discussion, here but I wonder where are all these "small forwards"?
Someone who’s 6’5" to 6’7", I take it. But if you’re that height and you can shoot, you’re going to be called a shooting guard, a la Alex Burks. And if you’re that height and thick enough to bang inside, you’ll be playing PF.
So that leaves guys who can’t shoot and are too short or too skinny to play inside. Why would we recruit those players in the first place?
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jun 7, 2011 4:56 PM CDT reply actions
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