Thomas Robinson Charged with misdemeanor battery.
Here we go again.
about 1 year ago
Warden11
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Old news
I made a comment on this like, 8 or 9 minutes ago. Scooped!
But yeah, cue the haters screaming about how the b-ball program is out of control.
by PenguinHawk on Apr 19, 2011 12:11 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Yawn... what a waste of time in the legal system
So he tried to break up a fight, someone (likely a dbag bouncer) provoked him, and he got mad and retaliated. I’m shocked.
Look, a lot of bouncers act like assholes while they work. Not ALL (I actually have two buddies who were bouncers at KU bars and are cool guys), but a lot. Throw in a macho I’m in charge rush to the head and a power trip, and it is no surprise that people get in fights with bouncers all the time. I’ve seen at least five in my life from Lawrence to KC and even saw one in Manhattan in Aggieville. Bouncers are usually the absolute worst around closing time. People are drunk, people won’t leave, people are kind of wandering slowly out, and the bouncers and bartenders go nuts with the whole GET OUT GET THE FUNK OUT GET OUT NOW I HAVE POWER I AM AUTHORITY GET OUT LEAVE GET OUT NOW LEAVE LEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEE
I saw one one time grab a girl (who was standing near the door texting something on her phone) and throw her out the door. Then when people around objected to it, the bouncer took his sweatshirt off and challenged them to a fight.
The Little thing was a big deal. This is just stupid. Don’t provoke large athletes or you might get hurt. I learned that when I was 12.
And who the hell presses charges here? Oh my god man, he hit my buddy in the head bro! Not cool bro, and he spat on him bro!
When I was young, people got into fights sometimes. Especially when drinking was taking place. They then weren’t talking to the police about it whining “He hit my buddy man!”
I don’t mean to say basketball players should get away with stuff, I thought Little, Giles, etc all deserved the punishment they received. I just feel like a little scuffle at a bar isn’t that big a deal. I guess I’ve just seen it happen too many times to care. The fact he is getting charged is dumb to me. Especially in a GROUP fight.
Shit happens when you win championships
I absolutely cannot believe you are disparaging bouncers
Sorry Grad but I disagree emphatically with most of your post. Bouncers have to deal with drunk people. All the time. Drunk people who become antagonists. All the time. Low pay, shitty working conditions and having to risk bodily harm. All the time.
Bouncers do more good than harm. And then get to deal with elitist atheletes and their posse who think they’re entitled.
The key to your post is this: “he got mad and retaliated”. I’m sorry but Thomas Robinson is NOT allowed to get mad or retaliate. Period. It’s a bummer, I know, but it comes with putting on a KU jersey, getting your school, room, board, and food paid for, and all the other entitlements given to our student athletes. There is no gray area here. If you’re a “famous” KU athlete you walk away. Always.
build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.
I said SOME bouncers
Made it very clear that there are cool normal bouncers. I was friends with some. And there were plenty I met in my nightlife that were dicks.
Didn’t say all, said some. And I stand behind that.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fine
but I think Rivet’s correct here. Asshole bouncer or super-cool bouncer, or no bouncer at all, there’s very little grey area here. It sucks but Throbinson has to be the bigger man here.
Pour yourself a Tim Collins
I agree with this in general, but it's also good to leave open a loophole
We don’t know exactly what was said or what the situation was. Yes we would hope that Robinson would only react the way he did to an extreme circumstance, but without really knowing the details and/or being there, it’s not like we can say for sure one way or the other.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 19, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
And that's why I said "most" of your post.
But the fact remains: Thomas Robinson has a higher degree of responsibility here because of his status as a student athlete at the University of Kansas.
build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.
Not disagreeing with that at all
I’m saying call Self and the athletic department, let them handle it (i.e. run him with the soon-to-be-filled trashcans next to the court for a few hours, make him go to an anger management, etc).
Don’t press charges and cry to the cops
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
People choose to be bouncers
for 2 reasons: to become a bartender or because they like to beat people up and not get in trouble for it. Anyone that charges someone with misdemeanor assault is in group #2.
Not sure about here we go again
If you haven’t been charged with misdemeanor battery (or at least committed misdemeanor battery) you didn’t go to college. If TRob wanted to hurt anyone the charge would be MUCH higher.
Well you may be a better citizen than most
But I know a lot of people that have gotten into a scuffle. Most of the time it was trying to help out someone/break up a fight as well. Happens. Especially with drinking involved.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
You never threw one punch or even one push?
Because that’s misdemeanor battery. You may not know that because NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED WITH IT.
Obviously not no one
but c’mon. Dumb mistake for the kid to get involved knowing who he is, but this isn’t remotely similar to what Pullen and Kelly did- certainly nothing near Mario Little.
And really, the "here we go again"
is in reference to 2 things. 1) Nothing good happens after 2 am, this is our second clear reminder of that this season and 2) you know other fanbases will love this (and I don’t blame them) popping up again.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Yeah I'll play a drinking game
Everytime a KState fan says “I’m glad we don’t recruit THUGS like that” I’ll drink.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh man, it took like five minutes
I love watching KU players get in trouble It makes me so glad we don’t recruit with a " do anything to win" mentality.
by Joesus
lololol
Because everything about Robinson this year screamed “thug who will do anything to win”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Some new threads from Dillards doesn't help winning?
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
I agree with the 2am thing
I also agree with Grad that this should really not be a big deal, but come on. Is he even 21 yet? There’s just no reason to put yourself in that situation.
by PenguinHawk on Apr 19, 2011 1:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Look
I’m old and very untough. Once upon a time I was young and very untough (plenty here know me in real life and will agree). And even I was in the wrong place at the wrong time on plenty of occasions.
TRob shouldn’t have been involved but the fact remains that only giant dbags press charges after a bar fight. And only ever bigger dbags press charges after a bar fight when the cops won’t even arrest your assailant.
by bigreed on Apr 19, 2011 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Yep, you said in one short paragraph what I tried to in about a page above
I’m just like come on…. really people?
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
The person pressing the charges must be an idiot.
If you see a pissed off T-Rob, you shouldn’t be anywhere within arm reach of a pissed off T-Rob.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
The bigger idiot might be the guy letting his name out in the article
Full name. Telling police and reporters how big mean TRob hurt his buddy. There is a thing called facebook… buddy. I wouldn’t have said a word. Guess he is braver than me.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I went to the Royals' game last night
And Tim Collins was turrible. I will NOT drink anything named after him.
Change your signature for the love of God
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
He was pretty bad,
but he started the season with seven consecutive outings and almost 10 innings without allowing a run and lots of KKKKK’s. Plus he’s like 5’2".
I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt but yes, I am considering changing my sig.
Pour yourself a Tim Collins
So wrong. He is at least 5'3
I think you need to jump on board the Alex Gordon bandwagon
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Or if you are a bouncer
Don’t start yelling crap and doing your IM THE MAN GET OUT LEAVE GET OUT to a crowd of large athletes. I’m sure that is going to end well for you.
Again, my experience with boucner types… I’m willing to bet the guy instigated the whole thing
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Probably
Bouncers (in general) have a pressing need to show everyone how tough they are. They’re the type of people who get rejected by the police academy because they’re only interested in being allowed to put their hands on people legally. The fact that this guy turned around and whined to the cops and the newspaper afterward just sounds even more like prototypical bouncer behavior.
So yeah, I hate bouncers.
by PenguinHawk on Apr 19, 2011 2:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And my experience w/ athletes says they're just as stubborn.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Apr 19, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely.
So its probably a bad idea to flash the macho “get out of my bar dammit” to a group of them. For every action… there is a reaction…. or something
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
If the racial epitaph rumor is true
this is probably getting dropped real fast.
Yep
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
You never know
He might have had time to compose a racial epitaph. That’d be impressive.
by Pilsner on Apr 19, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can I blame autocorrect?
that was embarrassing.
You can't blame autocorrect
for reply fails
;)
by PenguinHawk on Apr 19, 2011 2:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Especially
when you’re not on a mobile device. Trusting firefox to not let you look stupid on the internet is clearly not good judgement.
Well well well...
This kind of thing drives me absolutely nuts. I love these guys. All of them, even though I don’t know a single one of them. But I have a really hard time defending them when this crap keeps on happening. Being a KU basketball player is a privilege, not a right. It does not give you the right to do stupid things and get arrested for them. Maybe I’m a loser (very likely), but I just don’t see the draw in being out at 2 am on a Monday night. Surely, there are better things to be doing. HCBS needs to lay down the law and get these guys in line. I’m sick of this.
I feel kinda like Don Corleone (start at about 4:25) when he’s talking to the heads of the five families before Michael comes back from Sicily. There have been too many incidents to think that any one of them is an accident or aberration. This has become a pattern, and it needs to stop. Now.
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This occurred 2am on April 10th, so he was out on a Saturday night.
And I say we wait until the entire story comes out. The release says Robinson was restraining his friend, and then appeared to get angry. What made him angry? If it was something racial, as has been rumored, I’m all for Robinson getting angry and I personally wish he would have choked that bitch out.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Disagree
I don’t care if someone called his dead mother a bleeping, bleeptedy, racial slur, bleeptedly, bleep.
Robinson cannot react. He cannot get mad. He cannot retaliate. It’s part of being a famous KU athlete and he is supposed to know better. Being famous is a being a magnet for people trying to get under you skin, especially when you’re a KU bball player in Lawrence, KS.
Again, I don’t think there is ANY out or gray area here. He simply needs to walk away and/or avoid those situations entirely.
build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.
It's not like he beat the guy into a coma and is now looking at prison.
He probably pushed a guy in the head. How do you know he wasn’t pushed first? You’re condemning him because the other party was the first to file?
I get that he has a target on his back but that doesn’t mean he just needs to let anyone and everyone take shots at him without a reaction.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Disagree
“I get that he has a target on his back but that doesn’t mean he just needs to let anyone and everyone take shots at him without a reaction”
Unfortunately, yes it does. Like Bensa said, it’s not fair but he’s a privledged KU athlete. With those privledges comes a much higher standard than normal 20 year olds have to live by.
build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.
My bad, re: the date.
Missed that in the story. Still, a KU player has to know better than to let something get under his skin like that. I don’t care if the bouncer insulted his mother (RIP) or his sister, he can’t retaliate. He’s not just a guy. He’s a KU Basketball Player! Sure, he should probably get the benefit of the doubt, and I do desperately want to give him the benefit of the doubt. That said, my larger point is that the sheer number of incidents (not to mention their virtually clock-work consistency) with players on this team is too disturbing to simply ignore each subsequent incident. I can’t do it any more. I won’t do it any more. This crap has to stop. Period.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
by Bensa on Apr 19, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, it's getting tiring to hear about
but is KU any different than any other program? May seem that way since you’re closer to the situation than you are to other programs. But this stuff happens everywhere. We aren’t a Holier Than Thou program. Simply a Better Than Thou program.
Fortunately KU has worked itself into a program that gets high praise. Unfortunately, with that high praise will come high criticism over minor things.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
With great power comes great responsibility.
You’re right, to a large extent. I have high expectations for these guys. So does HCBS. So should we all. The only consistent thing about this team is their inability to meet those expectations. Is it harsh? Probably. Is it fair? Maybe not, but I don’t care. Being a KU player is a privilege, not a right.
I saw a 15 year old kid in court this morning, in on an underage smoking charge. The judge asked him what he wanted to do with his life, and the kid replied, “play basketball at KU.” This is a white kid who can’t be taller than about 5’8". You think he wouldn’t give his left nut to play for KU? Don’t you think you would? I know I would. I love this school. But doing what’s best for the school you love and doing what you think is best for you might be two different things, and it’s high time these players start realizing that.
If that means not going out on a Friday night, then guess what? I hear there are a lot of good movies available right now. Read a book. Make (consensual) love to a woman. Play video games. There are plenty of things one can do that guarantee one won’t get into trouble. Going out to a 21 and over club when you’re only 20 isn’t one of them.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
by Bensa on Apr 19, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, I'm with Triston...
Yes, playing at KU is a privilege. But it’s not a privilege that requires he give up all forms of college life. He was out with friends. He tried to stop said friends from getting in a fight and in the crossfire, apparently got angered enough to shove someone. It doesn’t get any more minor than that.
Was retaliating a mistake? Sure. But it’s the kind of mistake I can live with him, or my own son someday, making. Factor in the level of restraint that was also exercised and this registers as a nothing incident to me.
by hiphopopotamus on Apr 19, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Viewed in a vacuum, I would tend to agree with you.
But incidents w/ KU basketball players, in my opinion, can no longer be viewed in the light most favorable to the player. There have simply been too many incidents. I’m not saying cut T-Rob loose. Not at all. But I am saying the hammer needs to fall for these players, and soon. The track record isn’t just bad, it’s an embarrassment, even through my 40-0-Turner-Gill-is-gonna-be-great rose-colored glasses.
I don’t know what the answer is, and I’m sure HCBS is (or should be) contemplating this very thing. But I do know the cumulative effect of these many incidents has detracted from the university and from the program, and it’s gone on long enough for this fan.
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I agree there's no reason to be out in that situation
But you can’t place superhuman limitations on him either. Saying he cant react to anyone no matter what was said is to deprive him of the right to experience emotion. Now, if you mean he can’t react by escalating a confrontation to a physical level, I can agree with that.
by PenguinHawk on Apr 19, 2011 4:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess I'm just old fashioned,
but I’ve always viewed “walking away” as a perfectly reasonable option in circumstances like that. I wasn’t there, so I’ll refrain from saying that’s definitively what T-Rob should have done, but (at least) 99 times out of 100, nobody gets in trouble when one party just walks away.
Then again, I’m a wimp, so…
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
nobody gets in trouble when one party just walks away.
What if ’Merica would have just walked away after the Japanese pushed our buttons on December 7th, 1941?
That’s an extreme and by no way comparable example, obviously.
But what I’m saying is that walking away isn’t always the answer. Could it have been here? Probably.
I’m not sure what your childhood was like but I have a feeling that it wasn’t like Robinson’s. There are times and places when walking away just doesn’t work. And when you grow up with that for 19 years of your life, you don’t just forget about it because you play basketball now in a privileged setting.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
On the other hand, of course,
is the idea that, now that one has something worth embracing, such as a scholarship to KU, one might guard against anything (anything!) that could jeopardize it.
And yes, international decisions of when to go to war are at least slightly different than deciding whether to go after somebody who insults your parents. All I’m saying is that it’s an incredibly unnecessary risk to take. Why jeopardize what you’ve worked so hard to achieve over something that matters so little? That’s all I’m saying.
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It is a little easier to say from behind your labtop than being in the situation
I agree with your general principle, but I’ve seen the most reasonable, laid-back dudes end up in fights for various reasons. Just happens sometimes.
Not condoning what he did, but its easy for us to just sit here and say “well he should have just walked off.” But people get angry and do dumb stuff. I know I have a couple times.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, there's also
the idea of not putting yourself in the position where something like this might happen. Look, I’m not saying these guys have to be in their bedrooms at 10pm every night including weekends. They have to live a little. I get it. I’m just tired of this school’s marquee athletics program showing up on the police blotter every six months. It’s gotta stop. I don’t care how it stops, so long as it stops. Preferably now.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Yeah, I agree
Although I’d be a little more upset if there was another Mario Little thing. Hopefully it blows over and Self sends a message
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 19, 2011 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope it stops too...
And I would argue that he made the right decision. It was a mistake. It was also a harmless mistake. There is no reason that charges should have been pressed in this situation, in which case there would have been nothing on the blotter.
by hiphopopotamus on Apr 19, 2011 8:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How is he jeopardizing it?
He wasn’t driving drunk. He didn’t beat up a girl. He pushed a bouncer. Big deal.
I get your overall point. And I agree with it. But don’t flip out on Robinson for something Mario Little did.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
I know this might not be clear, based on the
overall direction this conversation took, but I’m really not upset at T-Rob. I’m mad at the team, the program, everybody. It’s gotten real old, real quick. Each of these incidents (some worse than others, obviously) taken separately really aren’t that big of a deal, but taken together, as I think we must at this point, they are an embarrassment. Do I blame T-Rob for protecting his boy? Not really, but I’m extremely frustrated that we all are having to constantly defend our players and our team from derision from the national media and other teams’ fans. We’re a national program, like it or not. What our players do in their free time matters, like it or not. I’m tired of this crap.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Yeah the timing makes it worse
Kinda how Morningstar’s DUI came at a time when we were all like dude, seriously? Now?
I think one of the bigger points you are getting at is you would think our guys would be more careful these days, especially after the things that have happened to their teammates.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 20, 2011 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Precisely this:
you would think our guys would be more careful these days, especially after the things that have happened to their teammates.
At what point do our fellas say, you know what? We can’t win doing this crap, let’s bunker down. F.O.E. and all that. Should be now, I’d think.
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So how does one go about doing this?
By locking themselves in their dorms from April-September?
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
How about they start by
avoiding places they’re too young to legally enter?
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Adam Lauridsen, a bouncer at The Cave who worked the night of the incident, told the Journal-World that several members of the basketball team were outside the bar around closing time as staff members were clearing people out of the club.
Good enough for me.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Well hanging around outside a bar that you can't legally enter at 2 am
seems worse than actually being in a bar at 2 am.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Apr 20, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Look,
if you’re convinced he did nothing wrong, that’s fine. I’m not saying he did. I’m saying he put himself in a bad situation unnecessarily, and that fact, combined with what has clearly become a track record of misfeasance in our basketball program, sheds an unflattering light on our team, our coaches, yea, our very school itself, and this crap has to stop. Period.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
I agree that it is frustrating
But I don’t feel this is an instance that needs defending to the media or other fan bases because I don’t believe he did anything wrong.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
I've seen this quote too many times in reference to incidents like this
“Nothing good happens after 2 A.M.” It’s ridiculous. I’m up until 3 A.M. every morning, and I go to all my classes. Nothing good happens if you do bad things, obviously. But how many times have the KU players stayed up late and nothing happened? Every other single time except for the two that we know about? Lets be serious and stop being grandpas. The time of the day has nothing to do with people’s actions. Stupid people make stupid decisions.
that was legen-wait for it
dary!
by fizzle406 on Apr 19, 2011 9:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe because incidents like this always happen around 2 am?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Because it's 2 am?
Or because of the situation/people they’re with/level of immaturity? If clubs were filled with the same people doing the same things at 2 pm, would incidents like this occur? Probably. Again, I think certain people will find trouble no matter what time it is. Like our football and basketball teams for example, on campus, in the middle of the afternoon.
by Lucamachine on Apr 19, 2011 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions
A wise man once said
Blame it on the vodka
Blame it on the henny
Blame it on the blue top
Got you feeling dizzy
Blame it on the a a a a a alcohol
by bigreed on Apr 20, 2011 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes. God yes
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 20, 2011 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
While this may be true
but when you say “situation/people”, the vast majority of these instances occur after midnight. I’m definitely not saying that if you consistently stay up until 2 in the morning, you’re bound for trouble. Be realistic though- if you’re out at a bar and it’s 2 am, you’re most likely not going to be in the best condition. Mix it all together and it’s a bad combination.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Maybe so...
But I’d never tell someone that’s in college that they can’t be out until 2am because nothing good happens. It’s college. It’s the offseason. It’s a Saturday night. I can probably count the number of times I wasn’t out in that situation on a Simpsons hand.
by hiphopopotamus on Apr 20, 2011 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
True but these guys also aren't the average college student.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
So because they play for a school you root for
they owe it to you to stay at home all the time because you’re worried they might get into a scuffle?
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Let's not pretend that KU's basketball team
is just like any other D-1 school’s basketball team. It’s not.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Nope.
But if you want to pretend they’re just like every other student, have at it. We know it’s not even close to true though, so the “well I/we/you did this, so they should be able to” defense doesn’t work for me.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Apr 20, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Doesn't need to work for you.
But at the same time these players don’t owe you anything. You don’t have the right to tell them they can’t act like a college student because they receive higher praise than others.
If you’re so worried about them falling off their pedestal, don’t put them there to begin with.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Don't pretend these players don't
represent something. They do. These guys are role models, like it or not. Maybe it’s not their fault. Maybe it’s HCBS’s fault for putting them in a position they’re not ready for. But let’s not pretend that they don’t assume a position on that pedestal the moment they sign on the dotted line. Hell, that’s one of the selling points (I suspect) HCBS uses on the recruiting trail.
I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to assume these guys aren’t anything different than any other student. We have an entire blog based on these players, for crying out loud. Of course they’re held to a different standard, and they should be.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Ok, this is treading into beating dead horse territory
Can we talk about something else?
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Apr 20, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
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