A Random Player Comparison
by fetch9 on Feb 16, 2011 11:29 AM CST
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This will be short but sweet: If you remember last year I did a fanpost that pretty favorably compared Brandon Rush and Xavier Henry.
Today I have another player comparison for you guys to try to see who I am talking about:
(you can click the image to enlarge. I think. If not I'll fuss around with it.
Anyways, as you can tell from me including assist and turnover rates they are both guards.
Go nuts and leave your guesses in the comments. I'll reveal the answer tonight/tomorrow or whenever someone guesses correctly.
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I'm gonna guess
A is Tyshawn Taylor this season, and B is Russel Robinson from 2008.
...and the home of the Brave
That was my guess, too
B had BETTER NOT be Chalmers.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 16, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Of course its Taylor and Robinson
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 16, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Well then at least give us seasons or hints
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 16, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
My first guess was going to be Pullen and Taylor.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
also, since I have to actually pay attention in this class
this fanpost was just a mini middle finger to everyone who claims Russ was a steady hand who always played solid, etc. etc. while Tyshawn is out of control and turns it over way too much.
Well of course, Robinson does have the better O-Rating while using fewer possessions and taking fewer shots.
So he still turned it over less than Taylor per game.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Er yeah, I was going to say, this needs %Poss and %Shots...
RRob 2008: 16.7 %Poss, 12.5 %Shots.
TT 2011: 20.3 %Poss, 16.7 %Shots.
You could also throw in FTRate:
RRob 2008: 53.1
TT 2011: 43.2
So RRob was a better shooter, better at getting to the line, and ended fewer of the teams possessions with a turnover.
I dunno who is claiming that RRob was a steady hand who always played solid, but yeah, compared to him, TT is less in control and turns over the ball too much.
Not to mention...
that Russ was a MUCH better defender. And he wasn’t needed offensively. Russ started because he set the tone defensively and knew his role offensively. If we were in a tight game late, we often went to Sherron.
Tyshawn starts out of default, I would guess. Because he doesn’t know his role on offense and he only sporadically plays the type of defense he is capable of playing.
by hiphopopotamus on Feb 16, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
tough to compare the two defensively
for one, Russ had the advantage of playing with Chalmers (not to mention Brandon Rush, who when he gave a crap was an elite defender, and Sherron who when he was in shape was a very good defender) and any mistakes he made Mario could clean up.
Also, Tyshawn is much better suited to guard the LaceDarius Dunns and Jordan Hamiltons of the world where he can stay in front of them and bother them with his length but he ends up having to guard smaller, quicker guys who can get around him much more easily.
Pretty sure Rush always gave a crap defensively
Thats how you lead a team in rebounding from the wing and earn a reputation as a really good defender.
Plus he has, IMHO, the best defensive play I’ve ever seen a KU player make
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 16, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
I honestly don't know which play you're talking about
and I wouldn’t say he always gave a crap (then again I don’t think anyone always gives a crap) but it probably was more often than I gave him credit for.
as grad said
I probably am beating a dead horse, and will retire. It has been proven to me over and over that people are more willing to rely on their own scouting expertise and obvious knowledge of the intricacies of the game of basketball over what numbers and facts tell us actually happens on the court.
by fetch9 on Feb 16, 2011 4:58 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Assuming you're right, what's your point exactly?
That if you think RRob was awesome, you have to think Tyshawn is awesome?
this was sort of said up above
but who ever lauded RusRob for his offensive abilities? He was known as a great defender, and just sort of a guy on the offensive side. Can you compare T2 to Miles or Vaughn in this fashion?
The shot% numbers for both Miles and Vaughn surprise me a little.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
I guess fetch's point (besides that we're all hatin' fools)
is that Tyshawn doesn’t turn it over some huge amount compared to other guards, which is true, and not what I expected.
and Fetch, my man
over what numbers and facts tell us actually happens on the court
I love statistics. I love the way they can objectively tell the story of individual and team performances. But there are limits as to how much of the story they can tell on their own.
Look at the Bulls in the 90s, for example. Look at all the game-winning shots Jordan hit. Statistically, he was not the best shooter on those teams at any point. John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr (who did hit one big game-winner for them) were all superior shooters in a statistical sense. Statistically, Jordan was a volume shooter who often scored his points “ineffectively.” Had you been in Phil Jackson’s shoes, would you have preferred to give BJ Armstrong the ball in all those last second playoff situations?
Statistics and human observation are not mutual enemies. They can often be combined to give the observer a better grasp of the bigger picture.
well it depends
if it was a hey go create your own shot in an iso situation sure I’d take MJ, but if it was a jump shot I would absolutely take the other three. I am sure that is some sort of basketball blasphemy, but I would.
It reminds me of people saying they’d take Derek Jeter over anyone in a close game.
I wouldn't take Jeter over anyone ever
but then I’m still mad he stole the Gold Glove from Alexei Ramirez last year.
At any rate, you’re helping prove my point. There’s no statistic measuring one’s ability to create a shot in a make-or-break situation. Sometimes your observations have to play a role in your assessment of players. Again, statistics are great, but if you’re going to rely on them exclusively, you’re no better informed than someone who refuses to pay any attention to them.
by PenguinHawk on Feb 16, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
no
What proved my point was you saying you’d take Jordan in a create your own shot situation, in the absence of any statistical evidence leading to that choice. You know he was great at creating scoring opportunities because you saw it. Sometimes that’s what you have to base your opinions on.
But for the record, I still like Tyshawn Taylor, and I’m with you that he’s not the screw-up people seem to see him as.
by PenguinHawk on Feb 16, 2011 10:46 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I am pretty sure stats prove MJ created shots well and was a good one on one player
furthermore stats prove that the other three were better jumpshooters.
But fair enough, point taken.
I think its a tough comparison
Given circumstances. Robinson ALWAYS played with Collins and Rush in the backcourt with him, so he could focus on more on defense, passing, etc.
I think Tyshawn actually has more offensive talent, unfortunately he tries to do a little too much a lot of times and force things. BUT, when Reed is being shadowed…and Taylor has the ball, well a lot of times we NEED him to make things happen.
Earlier this year Taylor saved us against UCLA and was huge in a few other games. We do not beat the Bruins without Taylor, he was everywhere that game and scored 6 strait points after we got down by 4…
I mean how many games can you say that about Robinson?
Shit happens when you win championships
Steals...
Russ-2 a game
Ty-1.2
"Mr. Rose, what's it like playing for your hometown?"
"Greatest thing ever happened to me. This is the greatest city in the world."
by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 16, 2011 7:25 PM CST reply actions
again
because he could go for them more.
Also, Dwayne Wade led the NBA in steals (or was really close to it) a couple years ago. Going for steals doesn’t mean you’re a great defender, it means you gamble more.
Better example:
Allen Iverson led the league in steals. Not very many years after that, he was considered a liability on defense. Not many years after that, he’s playing in Turkey.
by Steve Hengeli on Feb 16, 2011 8:15 PM CST up reply actions
He still gets too much slack from HCBS
Selby or EJ would be studs if they got to play without constant fear of being benched. Certainly the things Tyshawn does well aren’t so incredible that he has to play a majority of the PG for us to be any good.
IMO, Self puts too much weigbt on experience. If they haven’t improved, let a younger guy have a real shot at it.
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Feb 16, 2011 8:03 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Taylor has improved. Quite a bit actually.
He looks a lot better than he did last year IMHO, and taken care of the ball better.
I know his crapfest against KState is fresh in our mind and hes inconsistent, but I still would rather have him in there compared to Johnson, and I think hes been fairly solid for a lot of the season
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Feb 16, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
He still gets too much slack from HCBS
Selby or EJ would be studs if they got to play without constant fear of being benched. Certainly the things Tyshawn does well aren’t so incredible that he has to play a majority of the PG for us to be any good.
IMO, Self puts too much weigbt on experience. If they haven’t improved, let a younger guy have a real shot at it.
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Feb 16, 2011 10:36 PM CST via mobile reply actions
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