Kansas Football: The Case Against Charlie Weis
by Warden11 on Dec 13, 2011 12:23 PM CST
in Kansas Jayhawk Football 2011
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PrintYesterday we looked at the case FOR Charlie Weis. Today we flip the perspective and make the case AGAINST the hiring of Charlie Wies. Go easy on Warden because he volunteered to take this stance because he wasn't completely sold on the hire at the beginning. At the same time he's not "anti-Weis" and it's not easy to write this sort of opinion without coming off as overly negative. The point is there are two perspectives on this hire and right now both have some validity so just try to keep things in perspective while reading and discussing. - Owen
Sheahon Zenger shot for the moon on this hire, no question about that. Charlie Weis has built quite the resume over his time in football. Super Bowl rings almost cover an entire hand, former head coach at Notre Dame, and former offensive coordinator at the University of Florida. Guys with a resume like that generally don't take over the job of coaching one of the worst teams in Division 1 football. Of course, the job probably looked a bit rosier with a 2.5 million dollar salary with most of it guaranteed for five years.
How will the hire turn out for Kansas? Impossible to say right now but I'm not all that optimistic about the future of the program with Charlie Weis as the head man. Color me unconvinced about his commitment to the program and University. His quote at the end of November, reminding reporters why he took the job at Florida and that he'd be there for a long time isn't bad on its own. Coaches say what needs to be said to the media all the time (Don't give a **** about North Carolina anyone?) but when the guy who said it is on his 4th job in 4 years, I'm going to have to see his commitment to the program to believe it.
At Kansas, this is a big deal. One of the reasons cited by those who were supportive of Gill was the need for continuity in the program. Fans are tired of the coaching turnover at Kansas, with pretty good reason. Look West and see what happened when Bill Snyder slowed a bit at Manhattan and the University brought in Ron Prince. Almost all of the success from the Snyder years was erased and the program was on very shaky ground. Bill Snyder came back and righted the ship for the Wildcats but you know they're very aware of his age and worried about what happens when he retires for good.
Bring that to Lawrence and even assume that Weis has some success at Kansas, where does that leave us five years down the road? Pretty much the same situation we're in now. The talent should be better, as Weis will likely be able to recruit a little better than Gill and Mangino. How much better? We'll have to wait and see, he brought in good recruiting classes to Notre Dame. That's what happens at Notre Dame. He's not going to out recruit Texas or Oklahoma. The position of the program puts us hoping for middle of the pack in the conference and hopefully a stud here and there. Five years down the road, we're back at square one.
Assuming he recruits better than we've seen previously in Lawrence, the results still have to be there on the field. Weis is considered to be an offensive guru due to his time in the NFL and some of his offenses at Notre Dame. His first two years at Notre Dame were very successful, ending with trips to the Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl. Look deeper at those two years, you'll see in 2005 they beat three teams that were over.500 (Michigan 7-5, BYU 6-5, and Navy 8-4). Any non-Notre Dame team and I doubt they're in a BCS bowl in 2005. In 2006, the Irish did beat five teams with a winning record though none ranked higher than them.
The third year, things fell apart with his team finishing just 3-9. To me, that's a huge red flag. After controlling the program for two years, his program has the worst season of his time. His recruits, his schemes, and his offseason program and those are the results. The following two years rebounded a bit but the team still underachieved finishing with 7 wins and 6 wins. While at Notre Dame, Weis led teams were just 10-24 against teams that finished the season over .500. His teams were also just 1-12 against teams ranked at the end of the season. This while he had two top 5 recruiting classes and no class below 30. Can we really expect better results than his last two years when we can't expect any better recruiting classes?
Wrapping up, we're spending a lot of money on a coach that has health problems, has jumped ship after a year at each of his previous two jobs, and underachieved in his previous head coaching job. The health problems will impact his coaching and recruiting ability, to say otherwise is to be foolish. The health problems will impact how long he stays at the school as well. Then we're left in the same situation we're in now, just down another ten to twelve million and that's not a position that any of us want to be in.
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If Weis
Leaves in 5 years with the same record he had at ND he’s left us in a MUCH better spot. And a better spot than I would expect any of the other candidated besides Leach to get us to in that time frame.
For $12 million dollars.
If we’re paying a top 20 salary, shouldn’t we expect better than .500? Or are we just saying that .500 is worth more to us than it is to everyone else?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I agree here...
we’re paying better than most of the conference. He himself set the bar at a 10-2 Kansas State and he’s said that MULTIPLE times. Yes we’d be better if we are at 7-5 by year five, but I guess I hope for a gradual accent to BETTER rather than the ups and downs he experienced in South Bend.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
I think you're paying
for improvement. That takes a while. Keep paying a top 20 salary and in 10 years I’d expect a top 20 program. Everyone else is trying too.
Your also paying to recover for a mistake
If I buy a car, and it sucks and breaks down all the time, I’ll spend more next time to get a better car if I can afford it. I’ve learned my lesson. I think that is what we got pidgeoned holed into with the Gill situation.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 13, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
Except Gill
was a Jaguar. Expensive but a pos.
What are contract details?
I haven’t seen that anywhere.
by play4'ships on Dec 13, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
I've seen 2.5 million with virtually all of it guaranteed for 5 years.
That’s from CJ online and KC Star. I’ll look for the links.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Another guaranteed contract?
What happened to Dr. Z learning from Gill’s ridiculous contract and loading the new contract with performance-based incentives?
My guess is
had we gone the assistant route it would have been performance-laden. Hiring a ‘known commodity’ means you don’t have the luxury.
He was making 2.3 as OC at Florida
He’s not coming to Lawrence for a contract that is low base heavy bonus.
For 3 years.
At Florida, the former Kansas City Chiefs coordinator will get $765,000 this year, then $865,000 annually over the next two years, according to the Post. He also received a $100,000 signing bonus and gets a $10,000 supplement for wearing Nike apparel.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
The way we're throwing money around really pisses me off
I’m with you, Warden, that if we were prepared to spend this kind of money, I’d rather have gotten somebody I view as more likely to succeed (e.g. a coordinator from one of the top offenses or defenses in the college ranks). But my stronger preference would have been to not spend this kind of money. I don’t understand the attitude of KU fans of pride that we’re spending so much on our football coaches. Resources are finite. Money spent on one thing can’t be spent on another. If we’re hoping for bowl eligibility and a middle-of-the-pack finish (and everybody seems to be content with that as a goal for the next few years), we don’t need to pay a coach like he’s Stoops.
Like who
Who is this coordinator that everyone thinks was a sure thing? By my estimation coordinators jumping to a middle or lower bcs team have a less than 1:5 shot of success (not getting fired in the first 5 years). I think Weis is well above those odds.
Here's one from CJ Online
Weis, for one, is convinced it can happen. And Zenger signed him to a healthy contract to make sure it happens: Five years, $2.5 million per year.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Thanks.
That is a bunch. My biggest concern is will we have plenty of money left to hire top notch assistants and coordinators? If there is any truth to the Leavitt rumors, that’s going to be nearly another mil/year, no?
Zenger says he can raise the money
to pay the going rate. So far he hasn’t shown any reason to doubt that.
Any non-Notre Dame team and I doubt they're in a BCS bowl in 2005
Really? How about KU in 2007-08.
KU beat two 7-6 teams in OSU and A&M and a 8-6 Central Michigan Chippewa team. Other than that it was all losing records.
It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care.
I know I've said the following on here about as many times as Warden has complained about this hire
But it still comes back to who is left. I don’t understand why everyone on the anti-Weis bandwagon just bitches about how we hired him and how terrible he is and will do without explaining who was better.
And again, it has to be someone KU could get. And remember, we’ve had multiple reports surfacing that Zenger got turned down by SEVERAL coaches, who told him it was impossible to win at KU, the team was too bad, they were holding out for something better, etc.
It isn’t like Zenger went out with a pool of suitors and said “HEY I WANT WEIS” the guy tried a few others first.
Let’s say this: I invite you over for dinner and offer you a steak. You are in my house, sit down at the table, I put a steak in front of you. Then, you proceed to tell me how bad this steak is, its from the wrong type of cow, it isn’t good, you can’t believe I got it, what was I thinking. Ok, fine, you don’t want the steak. What would you rather have for dinner?
So who would you rather have at KU? Sure, theres an argument to be made for getting an up and comer coordinator type, if KU could have gotten a good one. Yes, there is also an argument for a guy like Dorean who has had success at a lesser level in the game. So… make it.
But the fact is, Weis is our coach and he is probably going to be here a couple years. I don’t see how pissing and moaning over the hire for days on end changes any of that. At the very least, let us wait and see what happens before we start getting twisted up.
Shit happens when you win championships
Again, it's not my job to know who is and isn't available. That is Zenger's duty.
At 2.5 million (top 20 salary in NCAA), there are a lot of open doors. Even very highly paid coordinators like Weis (765,000) was and a Brent Venables (440,000) don’t break a million a year. There has to be a guy out there that will buy in for the long haul with the right amount of money. Even if Weis does replicate what he did at Notre Dame, we’re back here in five years and everything will hinge on that hire again. This is buying a mercenary for a short term fix and hoping that carries over into the next hire, something I think KSU’s experience has shown doesn’t work.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 13, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
still don't understand the money argument
I think it’s a great thing how much money we’re spending on coaches. It shows we’re serious about building football and that we’ve got some juice.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 13, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
I have no problem with the money.
I just think that at that price, the pool is a lot deeper than some are making it sound.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
but I think Andrew's whole point is
throw out who you think would’ve come for this kind of money. Yes, we realize it’s not your job and it’s Dr. Zenger’s to who was out there that but for discussions sake, throw out some hypothetical options?
by I need more Esteban on Dec 13, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
A head coach from a smaller school that has been successful or a coordinator from a BCS program that has been successful.
I wanted a guy that has seen exactly what it takes to succeed at the college level. Young enough that if things work out, we can count on him being around for a little bit of time. I think at this point, Kansas should have been looking for a Bill Snyder or Gary Pinkel. Zenger obviously thinks getting Weis in will set the job up for the future, I do not share that viewpoint.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 13, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't know it was that easy...
why don’t we just bring Bear Bryant back to life and welcome him aboard?
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
by PenHawk on Dec 13, 2011 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Did I say it was easy?
He’ll, it’s harder than throwing money at a failed coach.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 13, 2011 8:21 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
you never said it was easy
but finding a Bill Snyder is the hardest thing to do in college football. How many years of suffering did KSU go through before they stumbled onto Snyder? Think of all the awful football programs throughout history. Every time one of them hires a coach, it’s with the hope of turning things around and becoming a great program. It almost never happens. Turner Gill was supposed to build something great and stay here for many years. Things don’t usually work out.
You can’t base your expectations on the assumption that we can just go out and grab a Snyder, or even a Pinkel. Hopefully Weis will bring us some success and notoriety, so the next time we’re coach shopping, the candidate pool will be a little deeper and far more willing to take the job.
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
We might also have had
Turner Gill, Mike Stoops, Dan McCarney, etc. The list of failed ’successful coordinators from a BCS program" is very very long.
Oh I agree that it's far from a given.
Just the direction I was hoping to see.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 13, 2011 8:27 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe that's the bone
of contention. I don’t know how many sure things we can hire in Lawrence for 2.5 million dollars in 2011. In 2016 my hope is we can pick up a sure thing for a top 20 salary.
That is my viewpoint
Warden and others are freaked out about dolling out another huge contract, and rightfully so. However, and I feel like this is the biggest point to my argument for Weis, IF Zenger had been able to find someone better, he would have.
I doubt he was going around with limited funds. Obviously the money is there, and if he could have lured someone else with that money he saw a better fit he would have.
From all we’ve heard, Zenger got turned down a few different times. That, plus how random and quickly the Weis thing unfolded, it looks to me like Zenger was running low on options, despite having the cash to make the job more desirable.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 13, 2011 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
Look we have decent facilities and a great deal of money to offer.
As of 2011 we almost can almost guarantee that this job will be your last head coaching job.
Even for 2.5 million dollars, a guy like Fedora prefers UNC. A guy like Leach prefers Wazzu (whatever the story is there). A guy like Sumlin prefers A&M (who I really didn’t want anyway). Those jobs are likely not going to end your career.
- It was a TERRIBLE year to hire a coach.
- A 45-year old coach that was a 50+% chance to come in and turn this program around simply wasn’t going to happen- we were going to be taking another chance on a guy like Gill.
- The decision made has a very good chance of putting us in a much better spot in 2016 or whatever to actually bring in a coach that can continue on the trajectory we want to be on. The buzz alone is more than anyone else would have brought including Leach and at KU that absolutely matters.
by bigreed on Dec 13, 2011 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
EVERY coach contains some element of risk of failure. Weis doesn’t have any less “risk” of failure than a guy like Chryst at Wisconsin. In fact, you could argue he has more given his penchant for job hopping and his health issues.
So in five years we’re very likely to be coach shopping again and once again the country and pool of coaches is going to look at us and go…..there’s KU churning yet another football coach.
Now with Chryst we could be in the same position in five years. The difference?
1) Chryst probably would have come for less money and a more incentive-based compensation structure
2) IF Chryst does work out, he young enough where we don’t have to worry about the grim reaper showing up for awhile.
As such, I don’t see how Weis puts us in a better spot for 2016 or has a better chance of long-term success than a lesser-known coordinator type.
Fact is, Zenger paid big money for that buzz you’re talking about. And like I said in an earlier post…..that buzz is nothing more than style over substance.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
by Rivethead on Dec 14, 2011 7:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
At least I'm not alone on this island.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I've left on a homemade raft, taking me where the winds blow.
I still think it’s a huge risk with a low likelihood of success, but at least I’ve been mostly convinced that the upside is there and is substantial.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 14, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
We were def getting a highly paid coordinator to leave the best program (recently) in the Big 10, which happens to be his alma mater, to come to KU.
I would have loved Chryst, every whisper I heard on the world wide web suggested it wasn’t happening. And keep in mind, my parents, uncles, and grandparents are all Wisconsin alumni.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 14, 2011 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
Well
he spoke with KU about the opportunity, so Zenger must have at least gotten in his ear. Can’t imagine he would speak to Zenger if he wasn’t interested in the job at all (like Sumlin).
And the above definitely makes it sound like he’s looking to leave Wisconsin and become a HC.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
Oh he would leave for the right opportunity
He isn’t coming to KU. I don’t think you or anyone on here realizes how unattractive this job is now. Two years ago, when we were searching, we had a much better sell. Almost hard to compare the two.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 14, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
Possibly. But I think most here are underselling 2.5 million per.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
And most are drastically overselling taking the Kansas job in 2011
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 14, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
this discussion seems to keep coming to the same place
Andrew mentioned it earlier. The anti-Weis contingent seems convinced that we had our choice of great, young coaches lined up to take the job and went with Weis instead.
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
by PenHawk on Dec 14, 2011 9:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
No, not all all.
I don’t think anyone is saying “we had our choice of great, young coaches”. Rather I think the anti-Weis are saying convincing a great, young coach to come here was:
1) possible
2) carried more upside potential.
In addition, I think I’d argue that a great, young coach actually carries less risk when you factor in money, contract structure, and Weis numerous family and health issues.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
I'm guessing he is referring to the needs of his daughter.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
id rather not have the insinuation that a special needs daughter means you can't do your job well
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
Fair enough.
But I don’t think there’s anything with including it like Rivet did here. Weis has a ton of things to deal with it, that’s part of it however big or small.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Sorry
if I offended but you’re absolutely nuts if you don’t think having a wife and kid who live thousands of miles away from you isn’t an issue. If it wasn’t an issue he wouldn’t have spent 10 minutes talking about it during his opening presser……
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
that part i am in entire agreement with
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
Considering that Weis said he left his Chiefs job because of his daughter
I don’t think it’s outrageous to worry whether his devotion to his family will interfere with this job.
he's also young enough
that if he does have a lot of success one of the big boys comes calling very soon. Just saying, there are two sides to the argument.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
If Zenger was getting turned down as you keep saying
then Zenger sucks (which may very well be the case).
Good ADs don’t accept no for an answer. They get it done.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
We agree on the larger question (the risk/return doesn't seem to match up here)
But I think this narrow point is 100% wrong.
If we want somebody who is going to stay here long term, it has to be somebody who wants to come here. In contrast to your position, I think part of a good AD’s job is reading who doesn’t really want to come here (but for the money/status) and avoiding them. It’s no good getting in a relationship where the commitment is greater on our side than on theirs.
It's tough to get an answer
when the coaches don’t even pick up the phone with SZ calls.
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
*when
The name of that song played at KC Comets games in the '80's was Giorgio Moroder's "The Chase." Now you know.
So you wait outside their door
Coach Weis said he waited 3 hours for a 3 minute conversation with Bill Snyder regarding a linemen.
Point is, obstacles exist. They get overcome by persistent people who know what they want. This whole, Weis was the best Zenger could get because no one else would listen to him theory just doesn’t fly with me. I have no doubts KU is a tough sell. But that doesn’t make KU and impossible sell.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
I would guess you aren't in sales
because just being persistent doesn’t mean a whole lot. It can sure be helpful in some cases but that is more with a longer sales cycle. Being persistent can also really alienate people if done the wrong way. Selling the KU program when a hire has to be made in 1-2 weeks is not as easy as you make it sound.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2011 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
Have you watched our team?
Its a tough sell. Add in no history, fans that bail when the team struggles, you are always overshadowed by basketball, you have to mine a recruiting area already littered with better programs… its a tough sell.
You are being unfair to Zenger. Only so much the dude can do. Shit, he probably had to pony up that cash just to get Weis. I think he saw a good possibility that the only guy we could get would be even less ideal to you, me, everyone
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 14, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you're right, Rivet
If Zenger had any ability at all, he would have hired Bill Snyder away from KSU by now. And hey, my idea about reanimating Bear Bryant is still on the table. Why is our crap AD not exploring these options?
I'm outraged
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
by PenHawk on Dec 14, 2011 9:27 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
So you just accept
that throwing a ton of money at a failed coach with tons of baggage is our only option?
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
calling him a "failed coach" is oversimplifying things
and I can accept the reality that Kansas cannot go out and hand select any football coach they choose as long as the AD is willing to harrass them about it
I discovered at a very early age that if I talked long enough, I could make people believe whatever I wanted them to. So, either I'm God, or truth is relative. Either way, booyah.
by PenHawk on Dec 14, 2011 11:06 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
As a fan, what is your job?
How long are you to work at each task?
Malzahn
being rumored to Arkansas State. Wonder why he wanted out of Auburn so bad? Hmm.
It's crazy if the minor ASU (Ark St) gets a big time coordinator while the major ASU (Ariz St) is still looking
Who would’ve thought that Wazzu would end up making the best hire of the Pac-12 programs thisy year. I don’t know what the folks at ASU are waiting on.
I posted an interesting SI article last week (?)
from an ASU person that basically said their facilities, etc. stink, and that no coach in their right mind would be going there.
There are two ways to look at it
1) It is very fishy to see both he and the DC leave so quickly and so close together. There may be something that is about to boil over at Auburn.
2) Sometimes it is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. Arky State is 10-2 and destroyed their conference this year. If he strings together a few 9 win seasons, he can take a crack at a decent SEC job or another more attractive opening. It may be a better career move than taking on a project under the microscope in a BCS conference.
wasnt crazy about this at first
but i think its going to really move this program in the right direction. he was the right man at the right time for this situation.
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
The greater the fall, the grander the ascention..
As I've said earlier
This was the best Zenger could do – it wasn’t a great situation. We can’t go back and change what was done in 2009. All we can do is hope this decision ends up for the better, not worse.
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