Kansas Football: One Prediction; One (Changed) Opinion
by Bensa on Nov 13, 2011 9:52 AM CST
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PrintAs a fan watching the last two games it's been on target with what we asked for early in the season. Yes both losses were disappointing in the context of the entire season, but they do at least raise the question and I think Bensa has hit on one side of the argument pretty well here - Owen
Photo Courtesy KUSports.com
Prediction: Turner Gill will now NOT be fired at the end of the year.
Opinion: Turner Gill should NOT be fired at the end of the year.
As to the prediction, it's to my knowledge unprecedented that a BCS school would fire their football coach after only 2 seasons (no matter how bad) absent some sort of disciplinary issue or scandal, etc. It's just not done. And further, if we're gonna can Gill after just two seasons, what kind of message does that send to the next guy? Come in here and fix it or else you're gone!!! What coach of any quality is going to want to come in under those conditions? For those reasons, I think AD Zenger will decide to bring Gill back. We'd better start preparing ourselves for that possibility.
As to the opinion, we've got to think long-term here, folks. Yes, these last two years have been disappointing. Heck, I've lost faith myself (and that's saying something) at times. And I'm certainly not discounting the fact that there will be powerful and influential donors calling for Gill's ouster at the end of the year. But AD Zenger needs to do whatever he can to calm down (what's left of) the fan base and preach a willingness to stay the course and see this thing through. We've looked better the last couple weeks. Yes, the results aren't there yet, but we're getting better. In fact, haven't we all been asking just to be competitive? Well, we've been competitive these last two weeks. What's the point in begging for something and then turning it down when you finally get it?
I loved the aggressive attitude in going for 2 in OT. Take the bull by the horns, I say. Yes, the play call left a bit to be desired, but that's fixable. We're headed in the right direction. These last two weeks have shown that. Let's not upset the apple cart just yet. Give Gill time and the results will follow.
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Question Bense.
Do you keep the entire staff in place or do you require Gill to make changes in the offseason as he heads into a definite make or break year three?
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
I'm glad...
this is Zenger’s call to make. My heart says "Fire this guy yesterday!, and a couple of hours after the game my head tells me that he needs at least one more year.
There has been a talent upgrade, in my opinion, and we’re still awfully young, but the size of many of these losses has been unacceptable. At some point don’t the players have to start questioning themselves and the coaches?
I recall that I was all but through with Mangino with the late game meltdowns in 2006, particularly against Okie St. and Baylor, and then we know what happened. But the difference was that our earlier losses were only by seven to the Fuskers and by three to A&M.
I’m not predicting a repeat of that, but it should only take a couple of games to know if Gill will be the coach in 2013.
Tough call, but I’m inclined to agree with your prediction and your opinion.
If players start jumping ship, I reserve the right to reconsider.
The players are far from jumping ship
just like the recruits that most thought would jump prior to committment day last year.
This is still such an incredibly young team, and sometimes they play like it.
And all of this against one of the toughest schedules in the country (#3?), which isn’t a stretch considering that we play in the toughst (#1) conferences in the nation. There are some that want to be dismissive to this fact, but that just seems like frustration in the face of fact. There is one HOF coach down the road that laughs in the face of SOS doesn’t make a difference. It is the reason KSU ran from every opponent with a pulse when he came back. Yes, yes, they played Miami this year, but only because they couldn’t wiggle out of it. That being said, if were in a round robin schedule, I’m all for playing 3 non-BCS opponents. Scheduling GT this year was an appropriate coming out of the OB year when we would not have been playing OU/UT/TT (at the time the dominant teams in conf) this year.
Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox now. Besides, I’m thirsty. Koolaid anyone?
good point
It sucks to be afraid of adversity, but it’s also the smart way to play it
It is the reason KSU ran from every opponent with a pulse when he came back.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
one thing that may mitigate some the sting
from our big loss to OSU was the near identical thumping TTU took yesterday at the hands of the ’Pokes.
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
by labbadabba on Nov 13, 2011 11:38 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I'm really rooting for them
I’d love to see the Pokes go all the way this season. Mainly because I have a hard time rooting for Bob Stoops for anything. And because I’d love to see some cracks in the SEC hegemony.
The poster formerly known as DCJayhawk0208
look this statement isn't to say that loss was acceptable for KU cause it wasn't
but at the time I kept trying to say to everyone who was going insane over the way we lost, “OK St. is f’n pretty good!” Bedlam should be crazy.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 14, 2011 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
can or should it be overlooked
That KU gave up its second 20+ point lead of the year?
I’m not too concerned about the optics of firing a 2nd year coach. This is a results oriented business, Gill’s squads haven’t shown results. If I’m a competive and motivated football coach I’d want to be part of a program that demands excellence. A program that will bite the bullet if need be to move the program forward.
As for this team, they competed against Baylor, I’ll give them that; that’s all we really wanted. However will being compitative for one quarter (TTU), 2 quarters (OU), or 3 quaters (ISU, BU) be enough?
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
by labbadabba on Nov 13, 2011 12:57 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I just keep looking back at the Texas game.
Three first downs, one of which came from a penalty. How do you give a coach like that another year?
How long?
BU was tied after 4 quarters – sounds competitive IMO. For 3 quarters, we were dominant, but that is a far cry to the right of just being competitive.
ISU was a 1 posssession game after 4 quarters – sounds competitive IMO, and the 2 missed FG’s by one of many freshmen was the difference.
OU was a 1 posssession game after 3 quarters – sounds competitive IMO, and that against a top 10 team.
TT – for 1 quarter we were dominant, but that is a far cry to the right of just being competitive. Even then, we were a couple TO’s and more missed FG’s by a freshmen away from winning. That’s competitive for the game. Yes, yes, the middle of the game (TO’s!) was ugly, but we were still competitive for the game.
And all this in the toughest (#1) conference in country!
You've latched onto the turnover bug when it has hurt KU as a reason to say we're still competitive WITHOUT the TO's.
Even then, we were a couple TO’s and more missed FG’s by a freshmen away from winning. That’s competitive for the game. Yes, yes, the middle of the game (TO’s!) was ugly, but we were still competitive for the game.
You do realize that without the turnovers by the opponents the last two games, the competitiveness likely wouldn’t be there?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I would really like to know about the defensive play calling in the 4th.
Was it really a “prevent”? And if so, who’s call was that – Shealy or Gill? And once the prevent didn’t work at all for two drives, did they adjust for the third?
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
I couldn't ID a "prevent D" if it tackled me
in all but the most obvious cases. That being said, I take the color commentaries with a grain of salt (block) because there are plenty of times when the comments seem obviously bent towards the programming storyline for the game.
BCS Coaches Fired After Two Years
Bob Valesente at KU, fired in 1987 after going 4-17-1, 0-14.
Dave Roberts at Baylor, fired in 1998 after going 4-18, 2-14.
Keith Gilbertson at Washington, fired in 2004 after going 7-16, 4-12.
Walt Harris at Stanford, fired in 2006 after going 6-17, 5-12.
Rod Dowhower at Vanderbilt, fired in 1996 after going 4-18, 1-15.
I can’t take credit for researching this. There was actually a thread about this topic started over on Phog.net this very morning.
I don’t buy the argument that we’re starting to get better and become more compettive either. While we have been more competitive, it’s been against teams near the bottom of the conference who were most likely overlooking us because we’re so awufl. In addition, I think even mediocre coaching wins both of these games.
Think about it this way: pretty much every football coach at KU who has ever been fired has done a better job than Gill in their last season. There’s no way he stays. Here’s another question for you: Were any of you surprised that we ended up losing both of these games? I know I wasn’t. I kept telling myself that Gill would find a way to fuck it up. Like I told a friend of mine—great coaches find ways to win games…Gill does the opposite.
Those win-loss totals don't make sense
They seem to indicate that there were 16-20 games in a season
by 2.1 seconds left on Nov 13, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
Overall record and conference record I think.
Not season 1 and season 2.
fully agree
I bet my golf partner at 4th quarter when 24-3 we would lose. Bingo. I wont go to another game coached by turner gill. He will never be a winner much less beat KSU and last chance to beat MU.
Yeah, it's weird to say it's unprecedented in BCS history when it's not even unprecedented in school history
The reality is that very few coaches who post records as bad as Gill and Valesente, and that goes a long way towards explaining why so few are canned after two years.
FYI on those coaches
Roberts:
Roberts was the head football coach at Baylor University from 1997 to 1998. He ignited controversy in 1997 when, after a loss to Texas Tech, he stated in a post-game press conference that he had told his players that “they were about as bad a football team as there is right now in America”,2 drawing the ire of the Baylor faithful. Following the 1998 season, in which the Bears went 2–9 for a second consecutive season, he was fired by athletic director Tom Stanton.
Gilbertson:
Gilbertson’s stint was odd – he was assistant head coach under Neuheisel. He was fired after basically a season and a half, probably b/c they felt the stench of Neuheisel still remained.
Harris:
Bowlsby admitted it might not be “fair” to fire Harris after only two seasons but that he had to do what was best for the school.
“I think the most critical assessment I had to make was does investing another year present the likely possibility of making substantial improvement,” he said. “If I couldn’t answer that affirmatively, which I ultimately didn’t, I felt it was better to make the change now than wait more time.”
Harris was a disciplinarian who clashed with some players, including linebacker Michael Okwo, who briefly quit the team in November. Players complained of a communication gap with the coaching staff.
“It was maybe just a bad fit,” receiver Mark Bradford said. “Maybe we didn’t respond to the way that was his style of coaching. His style of coaching probably would have worked in a lot of other places. It didn’t work here.”
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Well Gill could easily say the same to his players, RE #1...not sure what's so bad about that.
"I think the most critical assessment I had to make was does investing another year present the likely possibility of making substantial improvement," he said. "If I couldn’t answer that affirmatively, which I ultimately didn’t, I felt it was better to make the change now than wait more time."
This is what has to be answered and I think most would draw a similar conclusion.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
True, the stench of the Mangino regime definitely doesn't remain.
I’m afraid that the stench of the current regime will linger longer.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
My opinion from the cheap seats...
any tiny improvements we see at this point are fool’s gold.
At the start of this season I thought it was pretty clear that he wasn’t very good, and that he wasn’t very good at improving either. Someone like that, they’re just plain never going to be good. It’s going to be a slow painful climb to mediocrity. I think it’s possible to make too much out of small improvements, the brief glimpses of not-sucking. It’s like Stockholm Syndrome.
All that said, I think there are some reasons to keep Gill around for year three. None of those decisions have anything to do with the results he has achieved on the field, though.
by sax solo on Nov 13, 2011 1:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
You had me at Stockholm Syndrome. lol I have to ask, though, what are your reasons for keeping Gill around an extra year?
Reasons would be
Not having the money for a new coach.
Riding it out. We’ve already paid the price, even a mediocre year would be getting SOME value out of him for what we’ve already paid.
A sense of fairness and generosity. Honoring the contract and giving him his shot and with his recruits. I think these are stale but maybe good for one more year, right?
Just a possibility, but if Zenger wants to step in and give him one more year, perhaps with a stronger deal for more control or a contract termination or something. Gill was Lew’s guy, and Zenger has probably been hanging back this year at AD. For his second year, he might want to go to Gill and say, “Okay, I’ll give you one more year and a shot to be MY coach, but X Y Z has gotta happen.”
I’m not saying those are good reasons (except the money one), just that they might lead to keeping him.
I’m sure you guys know better than me though.
Id probably give him another year
but if Leach is really interested in the job I wouldn’t shed a tear over hiring him.
I write everywhere. You're probably better off following me on twitter
"Give Gill time and the results will follow."
What suggests this is even remotely going to happen? Did you say the same thing when we were beating Iowa State at the half last year and then let our lead fall apart? Or when we beat Colorado last year?
Yeah, people saw those two games as positive signs too. And how did this year turn out? More ass whoopings and a (likely) winless Big 12 campaign.
Look, you are now in the frame of mind a lot of KU fans are trapped in. OH MY GOD WE NEARLY WON TWO WEEKS IN A ROW AND AREN’T GETTING MURDERED ANYMORE HURRAY!
This is flawed. Every team is going to put together a decent game or two per season, and catch an opponent playing like crap. Baylor played horrible football for three quarters, we built a 24-3 lead and we still lost.
For me, I look at the big picture. And this is what I’ve seen: A coach and staff who have guided a team to one league win in two years. A team that for the most part of those two years was unprepared, undisciplined, grossly outplayed in the third quarter/second half and lost in blowout fashion 4 our of every 5 games.
Sorry, not buying. You give Gill more time, he might win another game or two next year at a maximum. Maybe. I have seen NOTHING to suggest he is capable of mustering anything more than that.
To me, you you get someone else. They probably can’t do worse than Gill, and any upside means they’ll do a lot better. Two close losses doesn’t change everything I listed above, the overall record, and the fact that we routinely have gotten destroyed. Throw in little tidbits like our donors threatening to stop giving money (and our athletic department isn’t exactly rolling in cash, thanks Lew Perkins), the fact that Lawrence is turning into a ghost town on Saturdays and fan support continues to dwindle, and recruiting appears to be heading south as well and I can’t sign off on giving Gill another year.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 13, 2011 3:59 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
"lost in blowout fashion 4 our of every 5 games"?
Where in the world does this come from?
We won 2 of 10 games, which would indicate by your analysis that we have been blown out of every other game. That is so thoroughly not true. There have been really bad stretches in many of the games, but only GT, OSU, and KSU were blow out. That’s 30% not 80%.
Don't forget Texas
and I’d count a 30 point home loss to OU as a blowout too.
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Texas and OU are clearly blowouts
All that matters is the final score, not whether or not we were somewhat competitive for a quarter or two. If you lose by 30, its a blowout. And losing to Texas 43-0 (the same Texas that just lost to Missouri by double digits) is obviously a blowout.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 14, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
I'd definitely call the Texas game a blowout
Also, I’d put the 30-point loss to OU in the blowout category, but I’d guess people can disagree about that.
Ok I'm sorry
We get killed 3 out of every 5 games. You are really hitting on the main points of my argument…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 14, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
I'd like to add that the fact that two close losses have made you advocate a year three for Gill
Despite all the general terribleness that his two years have been just shows how incredibly far Kansas football has fallen. People wanted Mangino fired in 2009 before the abuse allegations surfaced just because one of his most “talented” teams nosedived and he had only had two good seasons mixed with a poor overall Big 12 record. Compare that to Gill’s tenure… and he should get a year three?
Are our expectations that low? Did all those 56-10 drubbings lead us to view close losses to Iowa State and Baylor as a reason to bring back a terrible coach? Come on.
Shit happens when you win championships
Agree with both these points, and would like to also point to recruiting.
At this point, I think we can confidently say that Gill only even appears good at one thing, recruiting. And look at this year’s class! What happens when he can’t even recruit anymore because the team is so bad?
"Are our expectations that low?"
Generally, the expectations for the year were 3 W’s +/-.
Could it be that some people see a 3rd yr as being reasonable because they’ve noticed a really young team starting to play better? Maybe it’s not just the other teams playing poorly, like the pitch by Griffin that was tipped and recovered by the Hawks. That wasn’t such a bad play by RGIII, but was a freaking elite play by the DE. That’s sort of like when Simmons snatched the ball away in the OU game. There were plenty that RGIII misfired on, and they did correct things in the 4th, but some of their play was created by our D.
Yeah, and a really young team started to play better last season
Last year, we beat CU, lost to ISU by 12, lost to NU by 17 after all the early season slaughterings. People looked at those three games and said “hey look we are improving.”
Yep. How did this year turn out? Those three “improvement” games really paved the way for success this season.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 14, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
Okay for those people out there that want to keep him: What does he have to do next year to get a year 4?
Let’s pretend we keep him. How well does a coach have to do in year 3 to keep him? I know for me, he better at least get to a bowl game. And I have NO faith in him reaching a bowl game. So why not fire him this year, and not after another lost year next year. This must be what it felt like to have Dan Hawkins at CU.
A 2012 bowl game would be nice
and getting a non-con of SDSU, Rice, and NIU (away) should get us half-way there, but I’m not sure I expect 3 Big 12 wins next year. Five wins would be okay, and evidence of more movement in the right direction.
It would suck if our standards were so low,
but that might be the case. If the reason they only win 5 is the strength of the competition, then I think you have to consider 5 “passable” – that is, if it’s 5 wins and a team that looks like it’s improving.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Assuming we lose our next 2 games, that's 3 conference wins in 3 years
There’s no other coach in the conference that’s doing close to that badly. I can see taking schedule difficulty into account, but I don’t see why Gill should get a pass even as we perform worse than Tech, ISU and Baylor. They’re all facing the same conference we are with no tradition and new-ish coaches. And that’s not even including K-State.
I think Gill needs to finish no lower than 5th in the conference next year to keep his job if he makes it through this offseason. He has to be better than the teams playing the same schedule. Otherwise all this talk of schedule difficulty is just a copout
I think ISU is the closest example
And Rhodes has done better than Gill. 3 conference wins each of his first two years, 2 so far this season, and he’s in his third year. But if he finishes lower than 5th, would you fire him?
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think you'd have to fire him if he finishes lower than fifth
Because I think he needs to finish ahead of all of ISU/TTU/KSU/BU at least once in his first 3 years, and he hasn’t done it at all so far. There’s no way that he started with less talent than ISU or TTU. If he can’t finish ahead of them, it’s not the schedule, it’s the coaching.
He should have been better than:
Finishing above any of those teams in 2010 would have meant having an above-average team in his first season. Not impossible, but not really a “do this or you’re fired” type of goal.
In 2011, better than:
Top 10 KSU, with a hall of fame coach.
Top 30 Baylor, with a Heisman contending QB,
AND
TT, who gets to recruit in TX?
Like I said, I’m not defending Gill with this – he’s got some serious flaws that need to be improved upon. I just want to make sure we’re evaluating the coaching staff the right way (as you do, too, I’m sure).
Being average in the Big 12 isn’t some easy thing to do. What if we said, “Gill has to put together an average SEC team”? You’d say that’s an unrealistic expectation – well so far, the Big 12 has been better than the SEC as a whole this season.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
If we were showing some sign of steady improvement, he wouldn't have as much to prove next year
Also, if he’d managed to finish ahead of even a single team, or even to beat a single team who’s still in the conference, he’d have less to prove. But he hasn’t.
Baylor and Tech are always going to get to recruit in Texas. K-State will probably have Snyder for awhile. Oklahoma State will have T Boone Pickens money. OU and UT will have great traditions (fat lot of good it’s done UT these last two years). TCU will have Patterson. WVU will have … something. And ISU will have nothing.
But it doesn’t matter. There are always going to be obstacles that must be overcome. Stoops has to work under pressure that Gill will never face. Snyder has to work with subpar facilities compared to what Gill has. Gundy has to overcome being the 2nd tier school in the state. Tech and Baylor are more like 4th tier in their state. TCU is trying to make a huge jump in competition level … etc etc etc.
Gill is either good enough to match the bottom half of the Big 12 or he’s not. And if he’s not, then he can’t possibly get a fourth year.
We did have a pair of defensive tackles(JUCO)
visit this weekend. I believe both are December grads. If Gill can land a couple of those, make some changes as needed on the staff and continue to recruit well…then I would be curious to just see what would happen in year 3 and 4. I’m not saying I keep him, and I’m glad that someone that will be forced to make that decision…but I can’t help but be a little curious.
I guess at the end of the day I continue to wish him the best because his success and some continuity would be the best thing for Kansas. But if Zenger evaluates this at the end of the year and decides to go a different direction then I wouldn’t argue with that decision at all.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Most people I know will abandon the team if we bring back Gill.
And these aren’t casual fans. I know every week he is coach I care less. I went to Lawrence for the game on Saturday, it was embarrassing. Donors are going to stop donating. Attendance will keep falling. Recruiting has been decent, but not good enough to warrant keeping him. Plus it keeps getting worse from a rankings standpoint. And, for someone who is a great recruiter, he is vastly overrated. Reggie Mitchell has gotten our best recruits, and we still fail to address areas via recruiting (like DT).
I don’t feel like risking all of the above for a shot in the dark at a year three at Gill. Yeah, he might do better. But that is the biggest maybe ever, and NOT worth risking all of the above consequences.
Keeping GIll just isn’t worth it. Here is the plan of action Zenger needs to take:
Fire Gill and the entire staff, and encourage the incoming coach to retain Mitchell (the guys recruited well and our RB play has been good) and possibly Beaty and Grimes. People keep saying the money is too much for the buyout… but you got a better chance of getting donors to fork up cash for Gill’s buyout than to have them continue to give money with him as coach.
Just from that standpoint, Gill needs to go. Too much damage already done, you got to to move on.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 13, 2011 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
I hear ya...and I'm just playing devils advocate.
But let’s be honest, if he wins people will come back and they’ll forgive and forget.
There were so many cries for Mangino right during the 2006 season saying that he just wasn’t going to get over the hump. Hell that’s probably the reason he pulls the redshirt on Todd Reesing, he knew he had to win. Then he goes to the Orange Bowl, we all look back at 2006 as a defining moment with his team so close to something better and Mangino has people dressing their children up like him for Halloween.
So let’s say Zenger has feelers out and isn’t getting any solid bites. No big names and he’s going to have to hire someone that might be a good hire long term but it isn’t going to ignite a fire under the fanbase instantly. So then he’s looking at next year being a chance with Gill or without him from a monetary standpoint. Maybe he even feels like firing Gill in year two and bringing in a no name further damages the standing among the non-football diehards who will just mock the pick and wait until Kansas pulls a 2007 to come back again.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Sadly I feel like my "is Turner Gill Dan Hawkins 2.0?" article ended up being spot on
Some coaches simply do not have what it takes to field a winning program in a BCS conference. Gill might turn it around and win a couple more games. However, from everything I’ve seen, he appears to be another Hawkins: a guy who isn’t going to win no matter how many years you give him to build.
I don’t want us to make the mistake Colorado made and continue to watch a coach fail year in and year out under the misguided notion he is “building a program.” That is why I feel like your Mangino example doesn’t quite apply here. Mangino made a bowl in his second season and was suffering from close losses. I just feel like we are heading down the same road CU had with the Hawk and KSU had with Prince, etc. Just feel like being proactive is the way to go to avoid further damage. Like you eluded to, if there are decent candidates you make the call.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 13, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
It does seem...
CU v KSU is an interesting comparison. CU let Hawkins run through his 5 year contract before moving on. KSU saw enough with Prince and felt like things were going in a bad direction and made the switch. Now obviously that was an easier call because they probably knew they had the Snyder fall back plan all along when they initially rid themselves of Prince.
If Zenger has a good candidate that has expressed interest through some 3rd party contact or something of that nature, then I think you probably act.
I just think it would be a huge risk for him to take with his own career if he raises 6-8 mill for a buyout and then doesn’t make some sort of a solid statement with his hire. I guess the good news is that he really isn’t responsible for the Gill contract so he does have that going for him when he’s “finding the money”.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Plus Zenger can always play the "We aren't settling for mediocrity" card
KU’s next coach literally can’t do worse than Gill has. It is almost impossible from a W-L standpoint. Let’s say KU hires a new coach and they go 4-8 or 5-7. That is a 2-3 win improvement already. Even if it isn’t Bowl Caliber, Zenger can say “what, you wanted me to keep a guy with a 1-16 record in Big 12 play in two years?”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 13, 2011 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
That's a good point - Gill's contract is still somebody else's fault
it would be a huge risk for him to take with his own career if he raises 6-8 mill for a buyout and then doesn’t make some sort of a solid statement with his hire
If he makes the call to spend millions of dollars to change coaches, then it’s all on him.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
"Recruiting has been decent"?
HIS recruiting class was the as good as or better than any in KU history. And those recruits are still just freshmen. Do we really expect freshmen to have an impact for us? That flies in the face of everything that is written about recruiting rankings. Maybe there are exceptions, and Darrian Miller is a great example from our team, but the recruits that we are getting are expected to take 2 years to develop, and we’re only 1 year into that 2 yr period.
Rivals has this year's freshman at #34 (2.93 avg stars), juniors at #31 (3.08 avg stars) and seniors at $40 (3.10)
If we’re putting a lot of stock in recruiting rankings, doesn’t that mean that Gill has lots of talent to work with?
by KSinDC on Nov 14, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Mangino sucked in recruiting his last few years, those don't mean anything.
Unless you’re using them to show Gill’s great recruiting, then they’re accurate.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Not buying the recruiting card
Charlie Weis’ recruiting classes at Notre Dame were all ranked really high, and look how well the Irish did. Recruiting rankings don’t mean anything IF THERE IS NO ONE TO COACH THEM. And so far, our coaches have been poor at best.
People keep saying “oh but he is a good recruiter!” So what. So was Weiss. So was Callahan at Nebraska. Hawkins even had some “good classes” at Colorado. You know what they all have in common? Failure. Utter, complete failure.
And if you want to harp on recruiting more, fine. Another problem with this staff is they only stack talent in certain areas. We have 5 awesome running backs and no defensive tackles. Makes a ton of sense. So yes, getting Miller is awesome. But with Sims, Bourbon, Pierson, etc Miller’s get isn’t nearly as impactful as a stud DT, LB, Corner, etc. And we still strike out there.
Point being, recruiting success is way overvalued, and Gill and his staff are overrated in that department anyways
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 14, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
Hawkins...
had some VERY good classes at Colorado. #1 player in the country one year in RB Darrell Scott. He did nothing in two seasons, Hawkins never used him well. He eventually transferred to USF, having a pretty good year.
Hawkins also landed a pretty solid offensive line corps. Two years in a row they kept local 5* talents away from Nebraska, both have had less than impressive four year runs at Colorado.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Who on the staff would you get rid of?
Personally, I think we have a pretty good staff (except Long and I’m still not sold on Stamm). Our problems start at the top.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
strength staff...
blow that piece up and start over.
Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Ok
I have no problems with that.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
All this stuff aside -
props to Bensa for a solid fanpost and nearly the 1st on RCT in a month…
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
*and the 1st on RCT in nearly a month...
long day
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
the answer is YES
And further, if we’re gonna can Gill after just two seasons, what kind of message does that send to the next guy? Come in here and fix it or else you’re gone!!!
we shouldn’t be settling for terribleocrity (mediocrity would suggest they’ve been middle of the road)…i’ll give gill this much: this schedule has been BRUTAL, and the OSU-TT game makes our loss to them look not so bad by comparison.
besides the fact that gill hasn’t been able to get over the hump in these last two weeks, the sequence of events that led to us giving up a field goal right before half just shows that lack of attention to details that we need to be successful.
at this point, i think that if we find a solid candidate willing to come in, we make the move…otherwise we stand pat for next year and hope…besides the Big XII gantlet, we’ve got Northern Illinois on the road, so probably 2-1 again after non-con…schedule would be as follows: at OU (loss), OSU (loss), Texas (loss), ISU (maybe), at KSU (loss), at Tech (loss), at Baylor (loss), WVU (maybe), TCU (loss)…so 2 wins and 2 maybes, for probably a 3-9 record.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
--Albert Einstein
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 13, 2011 9:47 PM CST reply actions
Well,
And further, if we’re gonna can Gill after just two seasons, what kind of message does that send to the next guy? Come in here and fix it or else you’re gone!!!
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a little improvement at least. And don’t point to the last two weeks as signs of improvement. This team lost to Iowa State. Let that sink in. Iowa State!
www.oreadboomkings.fantake.com
Only signs of improvement
is that they don’t get blown out by teams ranked in the Top 20. They still lost to a team in the Top 25 (with a 21-point lead at home) and an unranked team on the road.
Losing close is still losing.
by jayhawk1996 on Nov 14, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Meant to say
they don’t get blown out by teams OUTSIDE the top 20.
by jayhawk1996 on Nov 14, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
ISU is a bowl team?
So we’ve been blown out by 3 of 5 top 25 teams and played the other 2 close. Do we really think we’re a top 25 team?
Maybe there is an expectation problem? Sort of like the beginning of the year when we finished the fall camp "just wanting to be competitive, then started the year expecting dominance when the O showed signs of life. The talk in the summer was about how we were hopeless w/o the guy from CO, but then Jordan showed signs of having developed some between his freshmen and sophomore years only to reaffirm to us all that he is indeed still just a sophomore. Hmmm, sounds a lot like most of the team.
Our goal should be to contend for a bowl every year
Going 2-10, 0-8 in the Big 12 and having two games you were in is not contending. If KU had gone 4-8 with some other near misses, that is a different story. Mangino’s third KU team went 4-7 with a rip-off loss to Texas and near misses against Northwestern, Iowa State and Colorado. That was with a team that went through 4 quarterbacks and had a lot of injury problems. That is a “progress, near miss” type year. This season under Gill is in a whole nother stratosphere compared to a season like that. And that was Mangino’s second to worst season at Kansas behind his first year…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 14, 2011 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Expectations
If Gill had reproduced Mangino’s second team (2003), you’d say that was a success, right? Well how many wins would that team have had against this schedule – 4?
Teams that Mangino’s 2003 team would have been favored against in 2011, with its #72 Sagarin ranking:
McNeese
That’s all.
NIU is rated higher (#60), ISU is rated higher (#42), on down the line. So this magical Mangino in his second season would have been likely to go 1-11. Maybe they would have been good enough to steal one, like NIU or maybe ISU on the road (the 2003 team beat MU #42 at home), and then they would be 2-10.
I’m not saying Gill has somehow done a good job, and I’m not saying this team is better than it is. All I’m saying is that if 4 wins is some mandatory cutoff for acceptability, then Mangino gets fired after his second season if that second season were 2011.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 14, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
Mangino inherited a far worse situation than Gill
1999: #78
2000: #79
2001: #93
2002: #132 (Mangino’s first year)
2003: #72
2004: #57
2005: #32
2006: #64
2007: #2
2008: #31
2009: #62
2010: #119 (Gill’s first year)
2011: #87 (so far)
I’m not a huge fan of computer rankings when we only have 12 games worth of data, but it seems to me that Mangino had weathered a terrible first year and gotten the team back to the level of performance it had been at before he arrived. Gill has us at the Terry Allen level, but the players he inherited were playing at the Mangino level so us being at the Allen level is an indictment of him, not a pass like it was for Mangino.
Sure looks like I kicked a hornet nest here.
I’m good for at least one decent fanpost every year or so, I guess…
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
Its good discussion
A “this KU football coach should be fired” is always good for some debate.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 15, 2011 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
KU is awesome
at firing football coaches. Some say it’s what we do best.
"No time for questions. No time for games. Start kickin' ass and takin' down the names." - Dave Mustaine.
by Rivethead on Nov 16, 2011 7:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Gonna be plowing new ground with this one
None of the other guys were shown the door and handed a $6 million check
::vomits in cubicle trash can::
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Nov 16, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
I still think he needs to go.
Bensa wrote: haven’t we all been asking just to be competitive? Well, we’ve been competitive these last two weeks. What’s the point in begging for something and then turning it down when you finally get it?
Actually, we’ve been asking to be competitive in every game, not just against our fellow sub .500 conference members (BU was 2-3 in conference before playing KU) .
What we really want to see is improvement over last year, and it’s just not there.
For me, the only way Gill can earn a stay of execution is to win out against A&M and mOO. Beat A&M in Kyle Field? I just don’t see it. Beat mOO? I’ve heard miracles occur in the strangest of places, and that would qualify.
Even if events should transpire that give Zenger pause to not punch the eject button on Gill, the D side of the coaching staff and the Strength and CONDITIONING coach need to be replaced, or I predict there will be hell to pay next year.
Question: Most of us agree that Gill & Co have done a good job of recruiting, at least on the O side of the ball. Where are they this year? KU is not rated in Rivals Top 50 programs (Vanderbilt is!), and none of our 7 (count ‘em, seven) commits are ranked in ESPN’s Top 150, and none are higher than 3 stars. Even if we give Gill a chance, the 4 stars he’s going after aren’t willing to do so. Just calling it as I see it.
"So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."
I take it all back
It is 12:06 pm on Saturday, November 19, and KU is losing 30-0 with 13 minutes left in the second quarter. This is just awful. Gill’s gotta go. Maybe before the Mizzou game next week.
Criticize FHOFNCHCBS at your own risk...
by Bensa on Nov 19, 2011 12:08 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions 4 recs
Ha, this is what I checked on this post to see...
I couldn’t imagine you still felt the same way after that one.
by hiphopopotamus on Nov 22, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
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