Dear HCBS,
by Carl C on Mar 8, 2010 12:59 PM CST
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PrintIt is of the best interest to the team to avoid bringing a double team when someone is trying to post up Cole.
It would be one thing in a game where the opposing big men are talented, and capable of winning a 1v1 matchup versus Cole in the paint on a semi-frequent basis...but we've been doubling up on guys that average maybe 4 points a game and have very weak interior offensive skills.
Cole has proven time and again that he is capable of playing GREAT defense while not fouling. (unless you keep sending him to hedge 40 feet from the basket...please stop that as well...) Keeping the floor spread, instead of doubling should also help us rebound on the defensive glass and could translate into some fastbreak points going the other way.
Bringing help over has resulted in lots of open shots for the other team. We were fortunate against KSU and MU that they were unable to hit anything...and we all know they had their fair share of open looks. If we continue to do this into the postseason...sooner or later we're going to play someone that hits their shots and we'll be in trouble.
I'm all for defensive pressure...but if the ball is in the hands of a guy that only scores 4 a game...why are we doubling and forcing him to pass to others who are more potent offensively...?
Thanks,
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Oh I how I hate seeing this
(unless you keep sending him to hedge 40 feet from the basket…please stop that as well…)
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
yep...me too...
I’m all for it when guys can play that way and some of our bigs can…but Cole is always dangerously close to picking up too many unnecessary fouls out there, drives me nuts.
53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!
Exactly
TRob wants to do it…the Morri want to do it….fine. They have the footspeed to extend the hedge but not foul if they’re smart abou it…..Cole does not.
I understand hedging, and see that it can be effective in taking a defense out of rhythm, but we have to be more selective about doing it.
All the opposing guard has to do it run into the big guy…automatic foul. We saw Clemente use this to his advantage about 4 trips in a row when we played KSU.
Fouls are a part of the game…..but if we’re going to foul….we might as well destroy someone who dares drive the lane or go up for a dunk and eliminate all scoring chance…at least get our money’s worth out of it rather than a touch foul 40 feet from the basket.
I'm Your Huckleberry.
It also drives me nuts because I feel...
like it takes Cole completely away from underneath the basket which is where he changes the game. Him hedging a screen up top just doesn’t help us in a lot of ways.
53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!
pretty much what we did against Missouri the first time....
worked great. I’m not opposed to this philosophy at all especially if we play a team who has a big man that can’t shoot.
53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!
yeah
but using a box and 1 is usually for teams that are outmatched. We’re never outmatched. I wouldn’t mind using it against a hot shooter for a few possessions but that is about it. If you can’t play straight up man to man then you aren’t going very far.
by I need more Esteban on Mar 8, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
I'm gonna actually disagree with you on this one, at least nominally, Este.
Actually, KU doesn’t really use a box-and-one defense very often. We’re more prone to break out a triangle-and-two, which we did to great effect against K-State both times. We also used it against Memphis in the title game in 2008 (though it didn’t work quite as well there). I think there’s a great deal of value in the use of an odd defense like the hybrids being discussed.
These hybrids usually steal you a couple of defensive possessions because the offense tends to be confused as to what they’re actually trying to attack. It’s not really a zone, and it’s not really man-to-man, so it sometimes takes a while to figure out what they’re up against. By the time they figure out what they’re up against, they still have to figure out how to beat it, which is no small task.
I don’t think trying a hybrid defense is any sort of concession that your team is outmatched. Rather, I think it’s a useful tool to try to confuse the opponent (and Billy Packer, while you’re at it).
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
Love love LOVE the triangle and two
Last time we ran the box and one that I can remember was against Memphis in the title game. I kid ye not
Are you sure it was the box and one in the Memphis game?
I’m pretty sure it was the triangle and two, with our guys chasing after Rose and CDR both. We only ran it for a couple of possessions in the 2nd half, because Rose pretty much tore us up.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
I could have sworn we busted out the box and 1
But I could certainly be wrong. Let the google searching begin!
Billy Packer
incorrectly identified our defense first as a zone, and then as a box “on” one (he said it wrong then, too because, you know, he’s smart), but I’m nearly positive it was a triangle and two. I’ll check the NCAA vault website and see if I can isolate the couple of possessions we ran it.
You know, because it REALLY matters. ;)
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
You bet your balls it matters
But that could be what I’m thinking of
If Packer said it its gotta be true
Box AND one, actually
Not to nit-pick, but that’s one thing that kinda drives me crazy.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
It was more of a hypothetical type statement
to begin with… thank you for the correction though, wasn’t quite sure.
Basically saying that unless we’re playing a big man that can shoot from outside….we should just have Cole guard the paint, and everyone else takes care of their own business. Probably not a great scheme….but in a hypothetical sense…doesn’t really matter. Self has forgotten more basketball stuff than I could ever hope to learn in a lifetime, haha.
I'm Your Huckleberry.
Agreed,
the doubling down to the post D seems like it’s ingrained in the players. Maybe it made sense 10 years ago when good shooters were rare, but nowadays you have to be able to knock down an open three just to make an NCAA roster. We like Bill Self’s focus on fundamentals, but this is one that needs to evolve.
Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 8, 2010 2:02 PM CST reply actions
I hear all of you on the frustration
of Cole picking up fouls up top, not what we want. But I’d really like to hear someone come up with an alternative to it?
What strategy would you employ to defend ball screens?
Switch? A fight under or over and recover?
Because both of those situations don’t scream great defense to me. We switch ball screens and all of the sudden Cole is playing a small guy, while a guard is on a big man. Ok, so we try to help and then recover. Well a player like Clemente just needs an inch of daylight before he’s in the lane and scoring or dishing for a dunk.
People may not like the hedging of ball-screens but it is our defensive philosophy and it’s what Kansas does, personally I see it as one of the toughest things to do defensively but when done well totally takes out the on-ball screen game. If anyone is to do it, the top programs with the best talent should do it, and that’s us.
But anyways, I’d like to hear thoughts on alternatives?
by I need more Esteban on Mar 8, 2010 2:56 PM CST reply actions
I agree entirely that this is much ado about nothing
It’s our defensive philosophy, and while our big guys do occasionally pick up a cheap foul away from the basket, the hedging of the ball screen does disrupt the offense’s execution. That guard has to move a good 10-15 feet further than the hoop before he can make his next pass, which gives the rest of our team defense ample time (generally) to rotate and cover the important offensive players.
Bottom line, we don’t get beat much (if ever) on hedging ball screens. Cole is athletic enough to get back to the lane before the ball gets there. It usually takes an extra pass or two to get it down there anyway, and by that time, Cole has recovered.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
ok ok...
could he just maybe not stick with the guy quite as long then.
53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!
Certainly
Cole and others could do better at avoiding the fouls, but the defensive strategy is very sound, and it causes much more trouble for the offense than we would without taking that risk. Just my opinion, of course.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
yeah Bensa
I think you said it perfectly and appreciate the backing of my argument.
It’s up to Cole and others to play sound defense and not pick up those fouls.
by I need more Esteban on Mar 8, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
I think they want to mix it up
If the hedger (?) sticks for just a second then turns around and goes in the attacker can just follow him in when he leaves. Clemente did this a couple times against us at AFH but fortunately he forgot how to pass or shoot.
So I think they’ve been trying to mix it up more, staying on longer or trying to go for a trap. That’s just my impression from watching the games. That way the guard doesn’t just wait for the hedger to turn around predictably and then make his move.
I have no problem with hedging on ball screens around 25 feet and closer to the basket.
I really don’t understand why they do it when the guard is a) outside of shooting range and b) the guard still has 30 feet to go. In those instances, I’d prefer the defender to try and get under the screen with the post player out to the side of his man to cut off direct penetration.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
definitely
that far out from the basket, the on-ball defender just goes under the screen. Cole/Morri/Etc. may wave an arm at the ball-handler just to delay him a half-second, but save the hedging for screens near the 3-pt line.
Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 9, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Good Points
My beef against hedging was kind of an aside thought.
Esteban, I really can’t come up with an alternative…so, you got me there. I would like to see us be a little less aggressive on them though. We need our fouls to protect the paint.
I still don’t like doubling on the post-up against Cole by the Morri. Unless we’re playing a premiere big man, Cole is going to either a) get good enough position and force the ball back out. b.1) force him into a harder shot. b.2) make him alter that harder shot into an even harder shot c) block it.
I'm Your Huckleberry.
As far as doubling goes, I've only got the Okie State game saved on my DVR and that game hasn't given me any good looks.
But I have seen them rotate out of the double with Cole moving towards the basket and the other defender staying on the opponent after he got rid of the ball. If this is what they’re trying to do, it may be their way of keeping Cole in the paint and rotating the other post player to guys farther away from the basket.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
I agree with literally everything in this post
And have been bitching about the doubling for weeks. Don’t even get me started on the hedging 50 feet from the rim…
::goes and pours a scotch::
you and many others Grad
but c’mon, give me an alternative. What would you do instead?
by I need more Esteban on Mar 8, 2010 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
I guess for me it depends on who we're playing...
Let’s take Texas for example, with Dogus…I lay off,drop under the pick and defend because he can’t shoot.
If it’s a guard that’s a decent shooter but not great, I pull the Sasha Kaun. Stick my long ass arm out, make them step back a few steps but then scramble to cover and stay away from any thing resembling man defense.
If it’s someone like Jacob Pullen…well hell I guess you’re SOL. Pick your poison. Lay off and he shoots, hedge and he can draw a foul, Sasha Kaun style hedge and he drives.
I guess in short, there isn’t a great alternative. With Marcus and Markieff I love the philosophy although Markieff has the tendency to beg for a foul call. With Cole I just think the negatives outweigh the positives if someone gameplans for it in a key situation. If I’m an opposing coach I’m having my big underneath bring Cole out top for a screen every time and then I’m attacking. Hopefully I get him in early foul trouble or worse case he’s spending all his time out by the arc and not on the interior where he’s most dangerous.
Again, I’m sure I’m oversimplifying, but it does drive me a bit crazy with Cole specifically.
53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!
Instead I could drink beer, wine, whiska, rumskies, vodka, gasoline, moonshine, etc
Lolz JKz!
I would just play strait up man with the bigs and if I WOULD double team someone in the post I’d use a guard. Big man backs him up, guard comes from the outside to harass, look for a steal, etc. This has worked well actually for us and has resulted in a lot of steals/breakaways for T2 and co.
This does tend to leave the other team’s guards open for three point looks at times but if you are playing a team cold from three or a team that relys on their bigs for a lot of scoring….not a bad idea IMHO
I guess I'll go against the grain...
and admit I don’t necessarily mind doubling-down on an opposing team’s big with our bigs even when the other player is not a highly skilled big man.
Take Wednesday night vs. KSU for example. KU doubled-down on Luis Colon of all people. Hardly a skilled big man. My first thought was why the heck are we doubling down on Colon?
Then I realized the strategy. Colon is not a skilled passer. He’s also not a great ball handler. Pressure him and there’s a decent chance he’ll panic and turn the ball over. Make him have to work to find an open man. Don’t let him easily get the ball back to Pullen or Clemente. Take advantage of the ball not being in Pullen or Clemente’s hands.
So there’s at least one arguement for doubling-down on post players that Cole should be able to contain one-on-one.
At the other extreme is a highly skilled big man such as DeMarcus Cousins. I guarantee KU will double-down on Cousins – at least initially – should KU meet up with UK. Cousins has a super quick spin move that I think would give Aldrich fits in a one-on-one scenario. Make Cousins force a shot through the double-team or find an open man (probably Patterson depending on the rotation of the defense). The double-team may not work, but it’s definitely worth a try in my opinion.
Right on, Lew
The point in doubling the post player isn’t to stop the big man from scoring (though it’s often a nice side-effect). Rather, it’s to create havoc for the opposition. When the post player sees the double coming, he’s got about three options. He’s got to react immediately and either find an open man to pass the ball to, dribble out toward the wing to relieve the pressure (not a big man’s strong suit, generally), or simply hold the ball on the post until he can get some help from a rotating guard.
The bottom line is that most post players (as Lew mentioned above) aren’t particularly skilled at any of these options, so it’s a good move for the defense to make.
I do share Lew’s concern regarding UK’s big men. They are the one team that really frightens me in the tournament, at least where their front court is concerned. They’ve got 3 huge bodies in Patterson, Cousins and Orton, and, while they all possess different skills, all are very talented. I’m pretty sure HCBS would continue doubling down on the post even against UK, but I’m not certain it would be quite as effective against those other Wildcats.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
Kentucka's bigs vs. our bigs would be an epic battle
Cousins, Patterson and Orton vs. Aldrich Morris and Morris = diamn
In that case I'd take our depth
I can’t remember the last team we played with a good frontcourt that didn’t get in foul trouble. Maybe Texas, but that game was over early anyways. So really, I think that especially since Cole no longer gets fouls (except, obviously, 50 feet from the basket) we would have the better match up. Kentucky really only has one post-presence that is a scorer, and thats Cousins. We foul him out or get in his head, and its over. Patterson is a great post-player…but he plays almost exclusively on the wing this season to prep for next year in the league. I’m really only worried about Cousins, and since we got Cole, McMorris, Kief, Withey, and T-Rob out there to collect fouls, I’m not worried about one post player.
by 2.1 seconds left on Mar 9, 2010 9:29 AM CST up reply actions
A double is not always a sign that we are afraid someone is going to score over Cole
Most post players in college aren’t used to being doubled, especially not big to big like we do. By doing this, we get the other team’s offense out of sync (at worst) and maybe cause an unskilled big man to force a turnover (at best). Don’t just assume that doubling means we’re afraid of being scored on – the staff likely knows what its doing and its not always obvious.
by 2.1 seconds left on Mar 9, 2010 8:22 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I'm just not a fan because
It seems like for every turnover or bad shot forced from doubling with the bigs there is an open dunk, layup, three etc. When it works its awesome, just kind of risky to me
This is an important point, I think
Our big guys don’t double just on a whim. They only double specific post players, presumably because that’s what the scouting report has identified is a potential way to exploit the opposition. It’s useful for several reasons, as I’ve discussed above. But it’s not done without a lot of planning in advance.
Operation Final Four is a go. Proceed to target.
Disagree.
The strategy is sound. It’s the active rotation by the other 3 players that is faulty. Watch the tape- guys like Tyshawn and Xavier get caught watching instead of rotating to their new responsibility.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Mar 9, 2010 12:33 PM CST reply actions
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