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In Hindsight: The Player Rotation

A day and a half has now passed and we can now begin to sift through the wreckage of what was meant to be a historic season, yet ended up a serious heartbreak. As Denver lead off this little four part mini-series, the experiences factor has been discussed. I have drawn the breakdown of the player rotation. A good fit, it is, because I happened to be one of the more vocal members here at RCT for going deeper into the bench as the conference season wore on. Disclaimer: This isn't a criticism or an argument for a deeper rotation. Just presenting the facts here.

Star-divide

First, the transformation of the Kansas roster from the end of last season:

Out: Brennan Bechard (graduation), Matt Kleinmann (graduation), Quintrell Thomas (transfer), Tyrone Appleton (transfer), Mario Little (redshirt), Travis Releford (redshirt)

In: Xavier Henry, Thomas Robinson, Elijah Johnson, C.J. Henry, Jeff Withey

Holdovers: Sherron Collins, Tyshawn Taylor, Brady Morningstar, Tyrel Reed, Cole Aldrich, Marcus Morris, Markieff Morris, Conner Teahan, Jordan Juenemann, Chase Buford

One thing that kind of lends to the experience factor that Denver didn't mention - the "mutual transfers" of Quintrell Thomas and Tyrone Appleton. Appleton was a highly touted point guard with lots of experience at the JUCO level. That's not Division 1, let alone NCAA Tournament, experience, but he was less turnover prone when he played last year than Tyshawn Taylor proved to be this year. Granted, him playing was a rarity, but he showed the signs of a steady ball handler and someone who could make the right decisions and not try to make too much happen. This post won't even touch on the question of chemistry and how altering the roster so much from year to year had an effect. I have a feeling Denver will touch on that tomorrow when he looks at the team chemistry. Just a thought to throw out there.

It's always been head coach Bill Self's philosophy to find a regular rotation and stick to it, especially come conference play time. Early on in the year, he played around with different players in at different times, different lineups on the court and doled out minutes without much probelm. During the first semester of the academic year, Brady Morningstar was on suspension, so there were another 15-20 minutes to issue at the guard spot. Elijah Johnson benefited the most from this. Fellow freshman had a similar benefit in the first semester before Jeff Withey became eligible to play after transferring from Arizona.

He finally settled on a regular rotation of: Collins, Taylor/Morningstar, (starting and off the bench) Henry, Mc. Morris, Aldrich, Mk. Morris, Taylor/Morningstar (the non-starter of the day) and Reed. They eventually accounted for nearly 94 percent of the minutes played on the season.

The minutes played by the three players who were the biggest subjects of the player rotation debate:

Game Johnson Robinson Withey Game Johnson Robinson Withey
1 17 17 0 19 1 12 12
2 7 2 0 20 3 5 1
3 14 18 0 21 0 0 0
4 13 9 0 22 0 3 0
5 13 18 0 23 0 6 9
6 21 18 0 24 0 0 0
7 4 1 0 25 6 0 3
8 15 16 0 26 0 0 1
9 6 9 0 27 5 6 3
10 0 11 0 28 0 7 0
11 1 9 0 29 0 1 1
12 10 8 6 30 1 1 1
13 4 8 2 31 1 5 1
14 0 3 0 32 1 5 1
15 0 3 0 33 0 3 0
16 2 8 0 34 0 2 0
17 3 11 3 35 1 7 1
18 2 4 0 36 0 0 0

Three questions

  • Can you guess between which game numbers Morningstar became eligible after suspension?
  • Robinson had 5 turnovers in the last 12 games in which he played. Why not play him more when he has fixed his one biggest fault?
  • When the Morris twins picked up the bad habit of foul trouble late in the season, Robinson and Withey's minutes played continued to flat-line for the most part. Why?

Morningstar became eligible to play on December 19 against Michigan, game number 10. Johnson went from playing 12.2 minutes per game before Morningstar's return to his first minute-less game followed 2 or fewer in 20 of the team's last 26 games. It's not as if Johnson's numbers were bad and we was only playing because there was no one else capable. He was the 24th ranked player in the nation his senior season. His turnover numbers the last three games before he disappeared into the abyss? Zero, zero and zero. He played far worse in that aspect against very early competition of lesser teams than he did so just before the tougher non-conference stretch was set to start, with games against Michigan, California and Temple in the coming weeks and conference play soon thereafter - three games the team won by an average of 19 points, yet Johnson played under 2 minutes per those games.

Of the three players in question, the lack of use of Robinson baffles me the most. A potential floor of a Darnell Jackson rebounding machine and a ceiling of a Drew Gooden multi-talented All-American type. Early on in the season, he played multiple meaningful minutes. He was turnover-prone throughout the non-conference schedule. You won't find anyone to argue that. But, in the 12 games mentioned above, he turned the ball over 5 times total in 4-plus minutes per game. Rebounding was something that was always there for Robinson. His 100 percent effort was his M.O. during his freshman season and always consistent. While the three man big man rotation of Aldrich and the Morris twins was effective, games in which they were all three very good were rare. It seems the more often insetion of Robinson would have not only benefited him, but the team when someone else was struggling.

In the last 19 games of the season, there 15 games in which a Morris twin picked up four or five fouls in a game, three of which were foul outs by Marcus. That's nearly every game where one of them were in serious danger of fouling out or actually doing so. Robinson played an average of 3.5 minutes in those 19 games, including including 5 in which he logged less than a full minute or none at all. At the same time, Withey played less than 2 minutes per game, including 15 games of one minute or none at all.

You can take the numbers for what they are and buy into the school of thought that the regular rotation should have gone deeper occasionally or not. Not even discussed here, though, is the future factor. What effect could this have on next year's team; not playing the younger guys more that are going to be relied upon heavily next season? It's a great point of debate.

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How much are we in risk of players like robinson or Johnson transferring? Are all of last year’s transfers normal for a school like KU?

by Alex Jones on Mar 23, 2010 8:38 AM CDT reply actions  

From what I've read from various media reports, we're pretty safe with EJ and Robinson.

Of course, who knows what will happen if it looks like they’re going to be riding pine again next season.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see it as much risk....

as far as years like last year…it could begin to become more common but I think it was just a product of having to reload so fast after ‘07-’08. We ended up with players that were likely never going to see playing time and it was better to move on.

53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!

by Owen on Mar 23, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lets not forget they are freshmen

Now that Cole is gone, both TRob and Withey are going to see a lot more minutes in the post. EJ has made it clear he has no problem waiting for his turn to come so I think we are safe

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

My complaint comes from them not even getting mop up minutes.

Temple: EJ got 4 minutes. Withey got 2. T-Rob did get 8.
Texas Tech: EJ- 3 minutes. Withey- 3 minutes. T-Rob- 11 minutes
Iowa State: EJ got 1 minute. Withey- 12 minutes (and looked good). T-Rob- 12 minutes
Mizzou #1: EJ 3 minutes. Withey- 1 minute. T-Rob- 5 minutes
Iowa State: EJ- 6 minutes. Withey got 3 minutes. T-Rob didn’t play.
Colorado (at Lawrence): EJ- 5 minutes. Withey- 3 minutes. T-Rob got 6 minutes.
Mizzou (Columbia): EJ- 1 minute. Withey- 1 minute. T-Rob got 5 minutes.

All of those games were under KU’s control with 8 minutes left. Why not bring in one or two of those guys for some minutes with the starters? It helps to rest your players and gives them a taste of the action.

I really hope the answer is Bill Self’s stubborness in regards to the rotation and not his opinion of their abilities.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 8:55 AM CDT reply actions  

I'd say it has very little to do with what he thinks of their ability...

Russell Robinson sat his entire freshman year only to start from that point forward almost until he left.

53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!

by Owen on Mar 23, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think some of that has to do with Self's coaching and other factors:

1) Morningstar was gone all first semester so I think even when we were up big once he returned we were trying to work him back in and make up for lost time.

2) Self has done this in the past. I thought in 2008 Rodrick Stewart should have gotten more minutes to spell Rush (who would play almost the entire game usually), Cole should get more PT, etc. Its clear Self values a shorter rotation to build chemistry.

3) Lets not forget that while these guys lack game experience, they are practicing against players every day who are better than the opponents they face. Coach Dooley said this about Elijah back during the season when a reporter asked about his PT. Dooley said "don’t forget he is going against guards in practice who are more talented than any opponent he will face (especially opponents getting blown out by us).

I mean look at Cole. He didn’t play much as a frosh then stepped into a focused role as a soph and played great. He said it was from all the practice he had against Darnell, Sasha, Darrell, etc.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um...

Klienmann didn’t transfer he graduated. And he graduated after the 2008 (title) season…

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 9:17 AM CDT reply actions  

He was around last year.

Huge ovation on Senior Day.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really? I could have sworn he was a senior in 2008

He got to start the game against Texas tech too. I was there I saws it…

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did he maybe do graduate school last year?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

He may have, but I'm positive

he did not start the 109-51 drubbing of Texas Tech in AFH on Senior day of 2008. The starters for that game were Case, Stewart, Jackson, Kaun & Robinson. Kleinmann did get 6 minutes that game, and scored 2 points, but he didn’t start.

Well, that sucked.

by Bensa on Mar 23, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

So you're saying KU Grad is wrong?

I don't believe it!

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dick

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ah, you know I'm just pulling your leg!

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok he didn't start but he played

He is in graduate school now in Saint Louis. But I am almost 100% sure he was not on last year’s team and his last was 2008.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not correct, again.

Not to get bogged down in details, but check out this box score from Senior Day 2009, in which Kleinmann logged a single minute after starting against Texas. He definitely played last year.

Well, that sucked.

by Bensa on Mar 23, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

and the ovation was huge against Texas.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well theres a lesson for you kids

Drinking kills brain cells

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok I remember now why I am confused

I went to high school with him and was in the same grade. However he REDSHIRTED his frosh year and thus now everything maketh sense

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

To add on from Denver's Experience post, this comment was from KU62:
After watching KU play 36 minutes at NIU’s tempo, I wished so badly for five fresh guys to bring four-minutes-of-hell, then come back with the starters rested and settled. Any coach in the country would go crazy preparing his team to not ‘lose it’ during or after the blitzkrieg, if not both. As a one-time shake-up in a tournament game going bad, there is no telling how effective it could be to suddenly not always strive to be "Who We Are" whether who-we-are isn’t working or not. However well done, predictability can be prepared for.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 9:59 AM CDT reply actions  

so true

A give ’em hell lineup of:

Johnson
CJ Henry
X. Henry/McMorris
Robinson
Withey

If they were in from the 10 minute mark until the 5 minute mark, there’s a possibility that game changes. Or, if it doesn’t change but we don’t get down further, the starters go back in ready to take it home.

by PDXJayhawk on Mar 23, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

A rotation where you allow that group a four minute chunk to cause havoc every game this year could have been very valuable. Rest your starters and throw something unique at the opponent, I would have loved it. There might have been a few games where it turned out to be a disaster but they won the regular season by 4 games, they had a little room for error.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

The way Self talks it sounds to me there is a bigger chance of Cole staying than anyone previsouly has thought.

Maybe I am reading way too much into his comments. But I would have guessed it as 90-95% sure he would be leaving. Those comments to me sounds like it might be closer to 50-60% chance he leaves.

It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care.

by KRichards on Mar 23, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

very interesting...

I’ve heard rumblings a few months back that he was strongly considering finishing things out at KU. My gut says it’s maybe a 20% chance at best, but I’d be ok with being wrong.

53 Conference Championships!! and now 6 IN A ROW!!! Holy Hell...Good Luck with That!!

by Owen on Mar 23, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

i remember

in the intro to the NIU game, the announcers were talking about how Cole was dedicated to becoming the first person in his family to graduate college. They said that after this semester he has ~6 credits to finish up. That would tell me that he has been planning to leave (2 classes over the summer). But that also gives him an excuse to come back next season under the pretense of “finishing” school.

by Alex Jones on Mar 23, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

still wondering about Self's "rotation-usage history"

Do we remember what the rotations were like in past years? I seem to remember that he stuck with 8 for the NC team, but what about the other years? Has Self ever done it differently, or are we stuck with 8 and only 8 year in and year out? And is that good or bad — seemed to work one year, and maybe now Self is sticking with what “worked”.

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 23, 2010 12:55 PM CDT reply actions  

Here goes-

in his first season (03-04) he had 7 players average double figure minutes. In 04-05, 9 guys with double digit minutes but three of them averaged 10 minutes a game. 05-06 actually had 9 guys average double figures (10 guys if you include Micah Downs but he only played 13 games). In 06-07, 8 guys averaged double digit minutes.

Don’t have time to go back and look at his time at Illinois or Tulsa but I do think it’s relevant. Also wouldn’t hurt to see how it compares to other coaches.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 23, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

history

Using Warden’s numbers for KU from above (excluding Downs), Self’s teams for the last 14 seasons have averaged 8.2 players per year who play more than 10 minutes per game:

Illinois:

In 2002-2003, 8 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with two averaging above 9.
In 2001-2002, 9 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game with the next at 7.7.
In 2000-2001, 9 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with the next at 5.6.

Tulsa:

In 1999-2000, 7 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with the next at 8.2.
In 1998-1999, 9 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with the next at 4.9.
In 1997-1998, 8 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with two above 8.

ORU:

In 1996-1997, 8 players averaged more than 10 minutes a game, with the next at 9.5.
Statsheet only goes back to 1996.

by PDXJayhawk on Mar 23, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

At first glance looks fairly consistent, and

I’d be worried Self’s stuck at 8 players plus scraps, though at Illinois he seemed to extend the rotation past 8 players all three years and at least 2 of his KU years seem to include 9-man rotations.

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 23, 2010 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I seem to remember him playing 4 big men up until the championship year. I definitely remember that Arthur/Kaun and Julian/Jackson seemed to be twosomes that would play together. After Ju left, Self decided not to play Cole much, and went down to 3. Since that obviously worked out quite well, I think he’s stuck to it ever since.

"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."

by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Mar 23, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah we really did the twosome thing though the most in 2005-06

Self started Wright and Kaun, then would sub them out together for Giles and Jackson and usually kept them together as often as he could.

Self played more guys in 04-05 and 05-06 mostly because we had so many young post players we needed minutes from and they often got into foul trouble. Those two years (excluding Simien in 04-05) we would also use Moody, Galindo, Kaun, Giles, JuJu, Jackson, etc. Lot of young guys down low.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Mar 23, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

well if the big men can just learn to commit more fouls

then we’ll get an extended rotation

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 23, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

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