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Waco Whupping

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Kansas began Big 12 play with a thud that rivaled that of the disaster in the home opener against North Dakota State.  There truthfully wasn't much in the way of positive play for Kansas on Saturday and Turner Gill and the Jayhawk staff have their work cut out for them.

Believe, work hard, stay positive and talk execution all you want, those things just aren't happening for the Jayhawks. There are a few players on the field every Saturday who seem to have the fight and the talent to compete in the Big 12, but there don't seem to be enough. 

Baylor set multiple records on the offensive side of the ball and Robert Griffin III looked like a world beater against an overmatched Kansas defense.

On the offensive side of the ball any positive momentum was quickly destroyed by poor execution, turnovers and/or penalties.  The one positive might have been the Jayhawk special teams play, but that isn't significant when you can't move the ball and can't stop the opponent from doing so. 

This team was a two touchdown dog entering the game. It's tough because as a fan you go into every game thinking and hoping for the best.  You also prepare for the worst and you can understand a loss if you feel like you've been able to compete and at least looked like you belong. But to watch a game where you looked outclassed and out of place in an early and manageable conference environment is frustrating to say the least.

At this point the best I can do is turn on some good football, let this one settle, believe that it's never as bad as it seems and hope that the Jayhawks can come out and avoid an embarrassment after a bye week when K-State comes to town.

We're a far cry from the Orange Bowl at this point. Why and how is debatable, but it's a reality that we're going to be dealing with for 2010 at the least.  I'll still be here cheering for and supporting this team. I'll be here good or bad, but it's definitely discouraging to see Kansas spiral backwards by what feels like a decade so quickly.

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Breaking Down Turner

Sep 2010 by Owen - 7 comments

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i gotta be honest here

Straight up, this team doesn’t deserve the quality of talented coverage it gets here at RCT. We were supposed to be permanently beyond the days where fucking Baylor could have easily dropped 70 on us.

If Turner’s postgame comments are all about what a tremendous team Baylor is and that we just need to fix a couple of execution problems, I am going to puke.

by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Oct 2, 2010 2:22 PM CDT via mobile reply actions   2 recs

I was thinking the same thing in terms of the constant “execution” comments. A 55-7 loss isn’t about execution.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know what Gill can say but he needs to find something different...

A loss like this to Baylor doesn’t help at all. Baylor’s far from the top third in the conference and they just treated the team like a D1AA tune up squad from the way it sounds.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes and no

I think he should take a lot of the blame, though I certainly don’t think he deserves all of it. But he can’t exactly go into a press conference and say “hey we effing suck”

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by fetch9 on Oct 2, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Especially

since HCTG can’t exactly break his no-cursing policy.

When is Late Night?

by Bensa on Oct 2, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is "effing" a curse word?

And I’ve got a question for certain “no-cursers”- If a person says “man, we flipping stunk”. Is that really any better than just dropping the f-bomb in there? I realize the f-bomb isn’t the best choice of words but if you’re using a substitute to convey the same meaning, is “flipping” any better?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

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by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suspect that, to HCTG,

they are the same. Hence, I don’t think he would say it. Obviously, for FEC censors, they’re probably not the same, but I think they are to HCTG.

When is Late Night?

by Bensa on Oct 2, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok we get it.

KGRTC you’ve been dropping the “let’s ignore football and talk bball” hints all week. It’s obvious. Dude just go to KUSports.com. Like I said on Friday, there are and will continue to be plenty of “what’s playing on Ej’s ipod tonight” arcticles to keep you satisfied.

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 2, 2010 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did he even hit at basketball in that comment?

To be honest, I think it was a pretty good comment calling out the staff.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have never suggested that anyone should ignore football. Ever.

What I HAVE suggested is that people shouldn’t ignore the basketball season that’s about to start.

I’m tired of this ridiculous notion that we can’t mention “the b-word” around here because it might crush our fragile little football team. Or even worse, the stupid fear that we’ll prove our rivals’ stereotypes about Jayhawk fans to be correct. If Misery ever made the Final Four, they would talk about it every single day for years.

Why can’t we talk about both, Rivet?

by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Oct 3, 2010 2:30 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

I know I joke about it...

and I really would love for KU football to get to the point where we can consistently be proud of the team, but you won’t find a person that yells, lives and dies Kansas basketball as much as me (in my biased opinion of course). Point is, from my perspective we’re welcome to talk KU basketball around here anytime we want. Hell if you want to talk Kansas track, go for it.

We’ll get it going, practice kicks off in two weeks and we’re going to be setting the bball schedule this week with the writers. Mention the b-word all you want KG. Like I said, I know I joke and jab at guys like Bensa and KC and the other more basketball focused fans…but it’s just that, a joke and a jab….I love KU basketball.

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by Owen on Oct 3, 2010 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry

but: “Straight up, this team doesn’t deserve the quality of talented coverage it gets here at RCT” sounds, straight up, like you don’t want to talk football.

And I took offense to that. This team, my team, as shitty as it is, still deserves coverage and discussion. The very reason I come to RCT is because I don’t have to wade through all the bball bullshit at KUSports.com.

There is absolutely no "ridiculous notion that we can’t mention “the b-word” around here because it might crush our fragile little football team". I never made that notion, nor has anyone else.

But what is there to talk about regarding bball now? Nothing really, unless you truly are interested in finding out that that Morris brothers ordered three Taco Supremes from Taco Johns at 10:18pm last night (shouldn’t they be in bed resting for “boot camp”?!?!?!).

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

ok two things...

I’m now watching CSU give TCU a game. 6-0 at halftime TCU winning, but damn at least CSU is prepared and competing.

Secondly, getting ready to watch OU v UT and they re-aired Mack Browns postgame from the UCLA loss…basically he says he embarrassed, he’s responsible for everything that goes on and it’s unacceptable. That seems like an appropriate response from our coach today.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 2:37 PM CDT reply actions  

Exactly.

If nothing else, he needs to make it clear that a game like this is unacceptable. Even in his first year, there are certain minimal expectations that need to be met. One of those being don’t embarrass your fanbase.

by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Oct 2, 2010 2:46 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Interesting item of note..

Buffalo lost 34-6 in Waco.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 2:54 PM CDT reply actions  

On Defense

Certainly the team couldn’t hang with the playmakers from Baylor. But what was it exactly? Not enough talent, certainly, especially the front seven not having the athleticism to defend a BCS-quality spread.

94 yards on one play – is that coaching, scheming, bad luck?

And in general, tackling? awareness? speed?

The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 2, 2010 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

all of the above...

we were playing off on the receivers from the start and I’m guessing that’s because we don’t have the confidence to press and matchup on defense with the more athletic teams. (speed)

Because of that they were able to run that screen for 8 yards a pop all day long. (scheme)

On that particular play we tried to play off and then run up on the play, but as usual our DB’s were effectively and easily blocked leaving the tackle to be made by an inside/out pursuing linebacker. Go back and look, Springer, Dudley and Johnson are having to make those tackles everytime. Talib used to make those plays when he was around because he was athletic enough to press, cover, recover and support the run. This is an extreme example, but Champ Bailey on the Broncos is one of the best in the biz at this.

Getting back to that particular play, Johnson missed. Safety was out of position and from there the Baylor guy just blew it open and we had no one that could catch him. (awareness, tackling, speed, general)

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good laydown, Denver.

I agree with your explanation. It seemed like BU was much more athletic across the board. During pileups at the line of scrimmage, the pile always moved in BU’s favor. Also, they were hitting and wrapping our guys up quickly, and usually with one man. This was a tough loss and I think is more painful for me as a fan. I hope the team keeps their head up and keeps competing…could be a real long year.

by Brian81 on Oct 2, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

you hit on another area...they were a much...

better tackling team than us and that’s coaching.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

DBacks not great, but okay; KU problems on both sides start with the lines

A good QB can pick apart any team that can’t put pressure on him, even against the best D backs.

A good offense can readily pick up yards if the D line is constantly being pushed back and aside.

A good QB that is scrambling for his life all the time will have trouble completing passes against the weakest secondary.

A good running back can be stopped cold if his line can’t give him at least a little daylight.

As I recall, Gill has 6 good O line recruits coming in next year. With Thorson and Capra both graduating this year, I anticipate that we will need to see at least two of those recruits earn starting roles if KU is to make significant improvement on O Line play next year.

I do not remember hearing/reading much at all regarding D line prospects for next year. Hopefully we will be getting in some guys on the D Line who can get some penetration. If we don’t, our D backs will be needing miracles to not get burned.

I know we’ve never won at Baylor (they now have the series edge 6-4 if the factoid I read yesterday was correct), and they are much better this year than they have been in ages, but this loss, in this manner, is particularly disheartening. For now, I’m just hoping the guys can suck it up and play their hearts out the rest of the way.

At least the day won’t be a total downer if Big 8 alum OU continues to score points against former SWC team tu (currently 21-7 OU in Q2; would be doubly sweet for me since I’m also an Aggie, and what’s bad for tu is great for A&M).

"So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

by LTCUSARet on Oct 2, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

we definitely need both o and d-line help...

but I wouldn’t expect any of the 6 to step in right away on the o-line. That just isn’t the norm and is one of those things that if it happens, we should be thrilled. But going in, I’d say we’re going to be working with the guys currently on the roster minus Thorson and Capra and adding back in Spikes and Chad Kolumber after his redshirt this year.

D-Line, we’ve got to land a JUCO. There’s more PT there than anywhere and we’ve got to sell that.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think what's more troubling about it...

is that we find ourselves justifying Baylor and USM losses based on athletes and talent among the other things, yet those teams aren’t head and shoulders above anyone we will play this year. Feels like we’re living in the basement a little.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's The Point

After Reesing, Meier, Stuckey, et al. left there wasn’t much depth left on the roster.

Our backups last year couldn’t play with the starters, and that is what this current team is…

I just think the cupboard was bare after the first layer. HCTG really doesn’t have a lot to work with at the moment and I’m not entirely sure it’s his fault.

"President Bartlet: A long flight across the night. You know why late flights are good? Because we cease to be earthbound and burdened with practicality. Asking important questions. Talking about the idea that nobody has thought about yet. Put it a different way...
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East Coast turned Midwest

by scouted on Oct 3, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Christian Matthews

I saw Christian Matthews play in HS. Why in the world is he playing WR now? He is a QB. He played like Robert Griffin in HS. Who decided to move him to WR. I am so surprised that Turner Gil would allow this. After all, all the coaches wanted to move him to WR during his career. This team needs athletes and playmakes and darn near everything. Christian was an honorable mention All State QB in TX. Why is he not playing QB?

by Bonusice on Oct 2, 2010 3:52 PM CDT reply actions  

it's an interesting question...

especially with all the positive praise Matthews received over the offseason.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, don't we have a pretty

stocked cabinet of WRs right now? Maybe he was just athletic enough to get on the field in some capacity, but wasn’t outplaying the other QBs so they gave him a shot at WR. Seeing the recent trend of mobile QBs (especially this year with Denard Robinson, Russell Wilson, Robert Griffin, etc.) kind of makes me wish we had one too!

by Brian81 on Oct 2, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's got to be it.

Gill is the second coach in a row to move him from QB to WR. I just think that they’re trying to get him on the field.

by ISellDrugs on Oct 2, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

ball in athletes hands

but he can do so much more with the ball in his hands every play…see Michigan’s QB

by Bonusice on Oct 2, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Athletic QB's

Sure, but just a week ago you would be crucified for mentioning a more mobil athletic QB (Pick) over Webb. Did Baylor really change our perception that much?

by dagger108 on Oct 4, 2010 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've been quietly pining for Pick...

I’ve alwasys felt uncomfortable with Webb.

There is no red like Chiefs red.

by labbadabba on Oct 4, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pick's out at least two more weeks, right?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 4, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

You and me both brother

Time to see what he has. We’ve seen Webb, hes been ok. Lets see what Pick can do as well. Time to run something new on O

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is total bs

Listenening to press conference ho hum. This was lowest ebb since Terry Allen. Were are going to become everybodies homecoming game.(Sound familiar Owen) Bottomline is that Mangino left us nothing to play with. We squandered an Orange Bowl and reloaded nothing. Only thing to look forward to is can he recruit as much as he talked about it. If not we will be watching floats on sidelines at every game.

by jhawki on Oct 2, 2010 4:08 PM CDT reply actions  

i don't understand

how the talent level is supposedly so bad…i’ll buy that there will be a little bit of a dropoff with a change in coaches, but the talent on this team is at least average (and it was good enough to beat GT, which, while not world-beaters, is a decent team).

talent may be a part of the problem, but i really don’t know what to think…how can a team that plays so well one week play so awful and lifeless the next?

my first inclination was that gill is doing a terrible job coaching, but i don’t really think that’s accurate…after all, he was masterful at getting us back on track after week one, and he showed a lot of savvy by changing the offense.

but, it’s really like the guys just absolutely didn’t show up today…i think without the turnovers it’s probably a much closer game, but still.

i fully expect a bounceback against KSU…not only do we have extra time to prepare, but their style plays to our strengths.

BOOM YOSTED!

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 2, 2010 4:39 PM CDT reply actions  

yeah the talent thing is tricky...

because we have been recruiting better (according to recruit ranking services), but it still looks like we’re slow and less athletic than other teams. Maybe that’s hesitancy or something else, but I’m with you in a lot of ways because I entered this season thinking we could maybe be a surprise because I thought we’d built some talent.

I guess to LTCUSARet’s point above, we haven’t recruited better at o-line or in the front seven defensively and that can make everything look much more difficult. So maybe we do have the playmakers, but not the workhorses up front.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

As I've mentioned before,

our recruiting class this year has, what, 6, 7 OLs in it? Help is on its way, it’s just gonna be a year or two. Just in time to get stuck playing UT & OU every year.

When is Late Night?

by Bensa on Oct 2, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we go 5-7 this and next year we should be rebuilding again

I was drinking the cool aid up until today. Except for an average GT we have been as the radio announcer on the feed kept calling us soft. That is a mindset and coaching and team culture has everything to do with this.

Winning changes everything but if we play like we have so far we will have a hard time holding off raids on any of our commits that have HS seasons warranting to be targeted by other D1 programs.

by ocjhawk on Oct 2, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I do think Caoch Gill will get at least

another year. Especially with a new AD. He doesn’t come across as someone whose personality will make the new guy fire him on the spot.

by ocjhawk on Oct 2, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

But there are some things that aren’t working and a small shake-up in the staff might not be out of line.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

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by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

5-7 this year?

I’m trying to find two more wins on the schedule.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not buying the talent excuse at all.

Mark Mangino left us with plenty of talent. Even if the recruiting services ratings are not super precise, there is plenty of talent on this team.

It’s just too young. And there is not enough of it. Also a healthy Jeff Spikes, Huldon Tharp, and Rell Lewis would have made an impact today.

A lot of what occured today is a mindset…..and that points at coaching. Even if you’re not the biggest, baddest, fastest player on the field, you can still play like one. In one of The Gridiron episode’s Coach Gill himself is seen telling the team that this game is 80 to 90 % mental. The kids simply are not getting that. And that’s coaching.

Yes, we’ve played our cards and bought our coach. There is nothing we can do about that now. Just support the kids and hope that they can turn this clusterf*ck around.

I can’t help but wonder if part of our problem is culture shock. The vast majority of these kids are used to being chewed out and (if you believe the allegations) verbally and physically abused. Now they are in a completely opposite environment.

Perhaps they don’t know how to handle it?

Perhaps I’m grasping at straws?

Perhaps I just need to go drink another beer?

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 2, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wondered about the same thing earlier today after a comment in the game thread.

First thought: of course you should go drink another beer. “Maybe” should never be attached to that statement.

Second thought: Who knows with college kids. But Gill seems to be a rah-rah guy and all that but he also comes off as fairly strict IF the phone rule and the “no women after 10 pm” rule are being monitored at all.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

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by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

OL recruiting in particular was weak

for several years, and even a few who we did recruit have already left the team. And Spikes gets hurt on top of it. Very limited, especially when running around.

Not sure what to say about DL, since it seems like we have decent numbers. That being said, we have lost some recruits in this area as well.

LB is the other area we are thin IMO, after the starters, we have walkons and a converted RB. That’s it, and that’s not much when running around for 3 hours. This is another time where injury (Tharp) really hurts.

Fortunately, at least the LB’s are healthy vs. recovering like last year. Going back to OL, it would seem that Thorson falls into the Springer/Dudley v.‘09 category, which doesn’t offer much hope short of RIley maturing real quick.

by dagger108 on Oct 4, 2010 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd say losing Lueken hurts right now too...

he played as a true freshman and looked pretty good doing so.

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by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 7:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

s Coach Gill himself is seen telling the team that this game is 80 to 90 % mental. The kids simply are not getting that. And that’s coaching.

It seems like that would be a player’s issue if they’re not getting the message

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by fetch9 on Oct 2, 2010 8:44 PM CDT reply actions  

reply fail

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by fetch9 on Oct 2, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know what sucks?

Watching future 1st round draft pick lock Christian Ballard dominate at DE for Iowa. Christian grew up in Lawrence, Kansas. How did that happen??? Why isn’t he a Jayhawk?

by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Oct 2, 2010 9:05 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Ditto

Thinking same thing. He would have been freshman when we looked attractive.What a waste.

by jhawki on Oct 2, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’ve been discouraged all week watching kansas kids start for oklahoma…oklahoma state…iowa and others. What’s worse is they are starting as freshman and sophomores and playing well.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 9:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

yup

unacceptable. Maybe the super duper elite kids can get out of state, but we need to get a ton more than we are getting

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by fetch9 on Oct 2, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep…and regardless of what anyone thinks of mango, he hurt us in that capacity.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 11:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Watching Iowa

I believe this is the style of football Long would like to run on offense, but does not have the line or qb to do it.

by jhawki on Oct 2, 2010 9:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Agreed…its going to take a few years but that’s what we need to be shooting for.

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by Owen on Oct 2, 2010 9:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Speaking of that game,

how does JoePa coach at his age? When my grandpa’s looked like him, they couldn’t remember any of the grandkids names. And we’re supposed to believe that he’s still doing more than just standing on the sideline?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

and Darren Rovell answers my question (he must be reading the thread)
darrenrovell
  
Why are announcers so scared to question why Joe Paterno doesn’t wear a headset during the game? Can’t really coach w/o 1.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh the agony

Even CU looks like a world beater tonite

by jhawki on Oct 2, 2010 9:45 PM CDT reply actions  

Richt's seat has to be about the hottest in the nation.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

but that doesn’t mean our team is one of the teams to beat. CU would get some whooping before they beat us
Furniture Stores Logan

by Dollie Woodrum on Oct 11, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Musberger's full of shit (in case anyone was curious)

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:48 PM CDT reply actions  

And Richt is cooked at the end of the season.

Has to be.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with sentiment

But all the commentaters are stating how rediculas that would be. The fan base is complaining saying he is too nice a guy. Sounds familiar, but he took anothers recruits and won a NC. I wish the change to the respect the players card had at least a two year bump at KU. But I digress.

by ocjhawk on Oct 2, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I love this as

 I remember a ESPN preseason recruiting show talking about how Georgia had the best HS players in the nation per capita.

by ocjhawk on Oct 2, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

If they do,

their coach definitely needs to go.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hear rumors

They want Harbough. I am trying to remember a West coast to South coach that succeeded.

by ocjhawk on Oct 2, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

ESPN just had Dooley on in the press conference...

made me feel better about today. At least I’m pretty sure Gill’s staff can count.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 2, 2010 10:13 PM CDT reply actions  

HCTG

single handidly has orchesttrated the2 worst defeats in KU history. Be thirsty my friends it is going to be a long season.

by jhawki on Oct 3, 2010 8:38 AM CDT reply actions  

hah...

a little hyperbole in this.

Two rough losses? Yes.

The two worst in KU history? Hardly.

"President Bartlet: A long flight across the night. You know why late flights are good? Because we cease to be earthbound and burdened with practicality. Asking important questions. Talking about the idea that nobody has thought about yet. Put it a different way...
Sam Seaborn: Be poets."
-The West Wing, Season Two, 'The Portland Trip'

East Coast turned Midwest

by scouted on Oct 3, 2010 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

The rhythm, the flow, the product on the field

just has such a Terry Allen vibe to it. Seemingly slow to communicate, the appearance of being out-muscled and physically dominated at virtually every position on the field, and an apparent lack of competitive fire.

I didn’t think that the cupboard was bare when Mangino left, but thus far I find Gill and staff getting less out of the same players than did a Mangino staff.

That being opined, I do see some rays of hope in some of the youth presence on the field. Sims, Patmon, and others look like thay can help change the current direction.

I guess there's gotta be a break in the monotony, but Jesus, when it rains how it pours.

by JayhawkTom on Oct 3, 2010 8:56 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

well said

i maintain that you need a hardass to succeed at a place like KU…the “players coach” isn’t going to get it done here, IMO. TG is not going to be able to recruit at a Texas, Oklahoma level, so we’ve got to bring excellent coaching to the equation.

for all of the bad stuff said about mangino, those players sure looked happy when they were winning consistently…the coach doesn’t have to be mean or abusive, but there needs to be some anger and urgency introduced into the process.

i know that just seeing Gill’s demeanor on the sidelines doesn’t probably tell the whole tale, but it almost seems as if he is clueless out there. if he’s not getting up in some players’ asses for a lack of effort, someone on the staff needs to because talent is not the only problem out there.

BOOM YOSTED!

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 3, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree in general, but......
but thus far I find Gill and staff getting less out of the same players than did a Mangino staff.

Have we forgotten that Mangino lost 7 straight and failed to make a bowl with Reesing, Maier, Stuckey?

The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 4, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok maybe not the worst

but certianly uninspired efforts agianst mediocre teams at best. Has to speak volumes to ability of coaching to getplayers ready to play.

by jhawki on Oct 3, 2010 10:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Don't back down on NDSU

that is definitely one of the worst losses ever.

Baylor? Maybe. For all we know, Baylor could end up winning the Big 12….and then, maybe, our loss doesn’t look as shitty as it does now. Maybe.

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Starting to wonder...

If Mark Mangino was still coach, does this happen? Ever??

I mean, he still has his team and players. What if he beats MU, wins a bowl against a crappy team and then is still here? Do we lose to BAYLOR 55-7? No.

When KU loses 55-7 to Baylor thats it for me. I am officially done with Kansas Football. It is dead to me. I apologize for my absence from this board in the next weeks or months. I can’t buy into these coaches, these players, any of it. Its just all so wrong.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 12:54 AM CDT reply actions  

I was out Saturday night with a friend...

same friend I went to the KU v CU game with last year. After KU lost we sat at the bar and he couldn’t understand why I was so let down. I told him that I really thought that the loss was the type that could set KU back BIG TIME.

I’m not sure if I really believed it at the time or if I’d had too many beers, but it sure looks like I was right.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mangino found a way to lose 7 straight last year with just as much talent

if not more.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 4, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

3 NFL draft picks...

and the best QB in the history of the program. Definitely more.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

We lost 7 strait yes

But lets be realistic. Four of them we weren’t winning to begin with (the Big 12 south teams and Nebraska were simply better teams) we lost on the road to CU and KSU (two very close games we probably should have won) and then blew a late lead against Mizzou. We at least were in every game, just on the wrong side of the close wins (contrast to 2007 when we found ourselves on the right end of the close ones).

Never was there a 55-7 loss to one of the worst teams in the league year in and year out

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

2002, Mangino's first season

@ ISU, L 45-3

also not pretty:
vs BGU, L 39-16
vs #6 KSU, L 64-0
@ NU (Nebraska was 7-7 this season), L 45-7

Granted, the talent was even less then than it is now.
Even 3 years later, though, there were some ugly losses.
2005 @CU, L 44-13

The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 4, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

That CU team won the North

KSU was 6th in the nation. Not Baylor. And like I said, those teams were made of Allen recruits and were Mangino’s first few classes. Our team now has a bunch of returning starters (especially on defense) and Mangino’s most heralded classes.

Not buying it

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Defense wasn't special last year, either.

I think what we’re seeing now is that Mangino might be somewhat of an offensive genius.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 4, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well at least we had a good O and crappy D (mostly)

Now we have a crappy O and a crappy D. And crappy special teams

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I don’t think this can be stated enough, but Mark Mangino inherited a team with ONE single D1-caliber player on the roster. This isn’t conjecture. This isn’t rumor. This is the stated opinion of his friend Bob Stoops. And I’m betting that Big Game Bob knows what a D1 player looks like.

Gill, on the other hand, not only has D1 players, but inherited 4 4 star recuits (I think…..McDougald, Opurum, Kande and Murphy).

Saying “the talent was even less than it is now” is a big time understatement!

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

What I'm saying is that if you judged Mangino by those four games,

you would have written him off in his 2002 season. Before Mangino, the 2001 team lost to ISU 49-7; the 2002 team, with Mangino, did the same.

The Sagarin rankings were worse in Mangino’s first season than the prior season:
2001 #93
2002 #132

Yes the coaching has seemed appalling at times, yes the results have been bad so far. Players are learning a new system, the o-line is learning to run block. No the transition hasn’t gone smoothly. But it’s too early to say “this never would have happened if Mangino were coach”. He lost 7 games in a row with the school’s best QB ever and a team full of players who had played in the same system their whole careers. Gill hasn’t gotten that opportunity yet.

The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 4, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Again, you need to look at our roster.

Did the 2002 team return what was a decent offensive line the year before? Were there Daymond Pattersons? DJ Beshears? James Sims? TIm Bieres? Jon Wilsons? MacDougalds? Everyone I just listed is 80,000 times better than a player on the 2002 team (excep Big Game Bill Wittemore).

This team has talent. Maybe not Big 12 North title talent, but talent to win 5-6 games with an easy Big12 south schedule. Talent to avoid going 3-9. Talent to avoid getting woodshedded 55-7 by BAYLOR

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think if Mangino is still here....

we’re still 2-3. But we would have been more competitive in the losses.

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think that's the concerning part...

we may not have the talent or experience to have a great year right now, but man we aren’t even showing up to the games on Saturday and that feels more like a problem with the staff at this point.

I keep hoping that the whole “it’s a major culture change and that takes some adjusting” argument is a good one.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

This I'll agree with.

Find a way to stay somewhat in the game.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 4, 2010 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not even after we stuff another run dominant team in 2 weeks?

As for your conjecture, the reality is we couldn’t call 3 running plays to run out the clock, so we lost to mu, didn’t go to a bowl game, (Were the players relieved?) and probably would have lost the coach even if it had happened. Would MM have even had as many recruits as we got if he had stayed? Maybe he could have intimidated the team into another victory or even 2 at this point, or maybe the mutiny would have started even sooner this year.

by dagger108 on Oct 4, 2010 1:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Mangino never lost to a team 55-7

And if it was close to that, it was Texas or OU. Not freaking Baylor.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

well…this is wrong and right. We did lose that bad to K-State a couple times and Iowa State even early in the Mangino era, but both were considered pretty good teams at the time. Who knows? maybe Baylor is good?

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Those teams didn't have the talent we had.

People keep saying that our team has no talent. How? We returned like 9 guys on defense, our entire offensive line, had a good stock of young, talented and highly recruited WRs and RBs.

Mangino’s best recruiting classes are on the field now. Classes that were rated around 6th in the Big 12 (give or take a position) for a couple years.

Our teams look unprepared, unmotivated, poorly coached, etc.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think it's time...

we realize that just because people return, doesn’t mean they are better. We went 5-7 last year. Returning 9 guys from a bad defense, means you have an older bad defense.

Our offensive line has been a huge disappointment obviously and I think that’s because we expected them to step forward and it seems as though they’ve really taken more of a step back.

Mangino’s classes from ‘07 on were ranked 9,9,5 and last year Mango/Gill ranked 9. Those that comprised the 5 ranking are redshirt freshman and sophomores. We aren’t recruiting at a level where we can expect to put underclassman in across the board and compete in the Big12.

I’m not excusing the unprepared, unmotivated portion, that’s a big problem…but we’ve got problems in terms of the depth in the program as well.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I will say...

that the 09 class…the one that ranked 5 is still a class I would consider a decent foundation, just young. But it was a truly apples to apples #5 Big 12 ranking for that group. It wasn’t a situation where we signed way more players than others…we got a good group in.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Another problem with our recruiting

And its starting to show, is we hit the wrong areas. I kept complaining about it all offseason but no one paid heed (all who enter, beware of the phog sorry had to).

We have like 8 RBS, 35 WRs, 10 DBs etc. And all our OL and DL personel suck. This team will never be decent until we get some quality big boys

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's also time that we realize

the single BEST thing that Mark Mangino has is his ability to make a 2 star kid perform like a 3 or 4 star kid.

I have no idea how he did it, but that was his strength.

Early results are not positive as far as Gill having this ability.

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Then again, its coming down to coaching for me

First lets look at the defense. Fine, we return 9 guys from a bad defense. It still should be better. Remember 2006? That was a bad defense. It matured a season with the same guys and it became a great defense. A BCS winner worthy defense. Now our defense is in the same situation and by all acounts is worse.

As for recruiting, again…my point is we weren’t bottom of the league consistently in regards to recruiting. Were KState’s classes that much better than ours? I thought they were about the same if not a little worse. Well, they are undefeated with a big North win over Iowa State (who IMHO is better than Baylor). Why? They have good coaching that maximizes talent.

The honeymoon isn’t just over, we flew back from the tropics 6 months ago as far as I am concerned. This team is getting out-coached every week, players don’t care, are unmotivated and we are not maximizing our talent (as little or as much as we have). And to fix things, our coach implements freaking retarded rules that you can’t swear, have cell phones or have girls over to your apartment past ten? WTF?!?!

Need to see something positive fast. If this bullshit continues next season…our new AD is going to have another search on his hands.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kool-Aid ran out?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 4, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Been replaced with brandy

When you get murdered 55-7 by the league’s whipping boy, its done

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not to mention losing to North Dakota State as well

An FCS school. Lets add that to the Baylor Massacre as well.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

pretty sure we...

are the leagues whipping boy. I get your frustration no doubt, just make sure you show up next fall again. Like it or not he’s going to get another go…probably a few more…it’s obviously in all of our best interests that he succeeds. Everytime KU fires/hires a new coach it’s like starting over, we just don’t have the history to do otherwise.

Questions, Comments? email me at denverjhawk@hotmail.com
Follow me on Twitter, Owen_Kemp

by Owen on Oct 4, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey....at least we're better than the ACC champions!

Yeah……..that’s about all I got.

build a damn football program, beat some ass, and get on tv more.

by Rivethead on Oct 4, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know me

I’ll always show up. Drunk with a blue koolaid stained shirt. I’ll be there.

Shit happens when you win championships

by Andrew Clark on Oct 4, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow -

I really missed this discussion today…

I was sitting on the daily links article with only 2 posts wondering where everyone was…

There is no red like Chiefs red.

by labbadabba on Oct 4, 2010 2:10 PM CDT reply actions  

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