Could KU's second team win the Big 12?
No other entrants for today in the Front Page Fanpost contest so KC looks to be the winner by default. Great topic though. Personally I think KU is a tourney team under this scenario but Texas, K-State, Missouri and probably others could knock off the Jayhawks due to lack of experience. I'd put them finishing somewhere in the 10-6 to 12-4 range which I don't think wins the Big 12. Coach Self does work some magic but there is some talent in the Big 12 this year. Thanks for picking up my slack KC.
- Denver
It's not a totally ridiculous question to ask, ya know. I know the question has been rhetorically floated out there during Open Game Threads, on KU message boards and probably even by television announcers during the early season blowouts. One way to look at it, is "leveling the playing field" and showing Kansas fans what it would be like to be an "ordinary" college basketball program. Take away the best five players on the team, or more simply, the starting five. So, let's say that Sherron and Cole both went to the NBA last summer, T2 got suspended for the season for the fights, Calipari was banned from coaching in the NCAA (we could only wish) so Xavier chose to go somewhere not named Kansas and a delayed bullet wound from a BB gun was discovered by the girl outside the Towers from last year. What does that leave Kansas with?
Sherron CollinsTyshawn TaylorXavier HenryMarcus MorrisCole Aldrich
C.J. Henry
Elijah Johnson
Tyrel Reed
Brady Morningstar
Conner Teahan
Travis Releford
Mario Little
Markieff Morris
Thomas Robinson
Jeff Withey
Doesn't seem so bad, right? Why do all of you other programs struggle to make the tournament on a yearly basis, Kansas State? Missouri? I would venture to bet that upwards of 85% of Division coaches (beyond their generic coaching lip service of "I wouldn't take any twelve players over these ones") would take that ten man rotation over what they currently have. Sure, it lacks a bit of size, but really, what team doesn't? Obviously, the real Kansas team doesn't, North Carolina has some big man depth, Texas isn't hurting, Kentucky has some big bodies to run in and out and Connecticut always recruits a couple behemoths ever year.
What do these teams all have in common? They're (for the most part) perennial top ten to fifteen teams every year. It's as simple as this - there are far fewer male human being over 6'8" than there are under 6'3". They're going to go to the top programs where they can be coached up by the best and brightest minds, because since there are so few of these "big men," there are simply few that know what they are talking about when it comes to coaching the bigs. All I'm trying to say is that three legitimate big men (MK. Morris, Robinson and Withey) with a hybrid fourth (Little - the name kinda kills my argument here, eh?) is about the national average. In fact, most teams probably don't even have that.
Anyway, that would be a good team. But, how good? Top 25 good? They would basically be as good as last year's team, in my opinion, so yes, a fringe top 25 team. Good enough to make the tournament? I think yes, easily. Good enough to win the Big 12? That's the big one. The Big 12 is good this year. Really good. And, deep. The seventh best team in the Big 12 would probably be the third or fourth best team in the Pac 10 and the fourth or fifth best team in the SEC this year. We should easily get seven, maybe eight teams in the tournament this year. But, could we be the best of those teams over sixteen games?
The quick and thoughtless response would be, "well, if we are as good as last year's team, then sure, we could." Unfortunately, that wouldn't make that great of a post if I just ended it right there, though. So, let's take it deep.
In the meaningful games played to this point this year (Memphis, @UCLA, Michigan, Cal, @Temple), the average number of minutes played by the five starters are as follows: Sherron Collins - 32.6, Tyshawn Taylor - 27, Xavier Henry - 31.6, Marcus Morris - 28.6, Cole Aldrich - 27.4. That is 147.2 (73.6%) of the available 200 minutes doled out in a basketball game. Given the per starter percentage of available minutes (14.7%), that leaves room for only two more players to play the roughly same amount, accounting for all 200 minutes. Break those two roles in half and call it seven percent for four different players. Still with me? That just means that in the "highly contested" (if you will) games this year, Coach Self is only going eight or nine players deep for significant minutes. Now, without working the same numbers for all thirteen games, I would guess that that 73.6% is marginally higher than the other eight games, which were not deemed meaningful. So, that says to me that Coach Self trusts his first five guys greatly and will likely lean on them heavily come conference play. This is good for all riders of the Operation 40-0 Train (Bensa, you've earned season-long linking royalties at any mention of an undefeated season with that post), which left the station long ago and picked up maybe a few more passengers Saturday.
We have to pick a starting five for this second team. For argument's sake, I'll take CJ at the point, Elijah at the off-guard, Brady the swingman, Thomas Robinson the four and Withey in the middle. Tyrel was a close call at the two, with Elijah playing the point, but I would feel more comfortable with a non-true freshman running the team - not that it can't be done - just my preference. Also, Brady gets the nod due to sheer awesomeness of making us wonder "Sleeves or No Sleeves" every game. Oh, and his ability to feed the ball inside; with guys new to the system down low, this will be vital.
Points per game averages for starters are as follows: Sherron Collins - 13.8, Tyshawn Taylor - 7.4, Xavier Henry - 16.3, Marcus Morris - 11.7, Cole Aldrich - 11.1.
Points per game for replacement starters if numbers were extrapolated to the amount of minutes played by the player they are replacing, based on current points per game rate this year (ppg/mpg x mpg starter): CJ Henry - 20.5*, Elijah Johnson - 9.5, Brady Morningstar - 5.6, Thomas Robinson - 9.8, Jeff Withey - 6.5.
*Now, obviously these numbers would fluctuate a bit and work themselves out based on factors of style of play, opportunity to play given, foul trouble due to playing younger guys more, playing against starters rather than against reserves, etc. But, let's make note of one player in particular. CJ Henry is averaging two-thirds of a point per minute played. Nobody else on the team is anywhere near that. He is doing more with the minutes given to him than anybody else on the team. For those that questioned or even doubted his role and impact on this team, just let that soak in.
In said circumstances the starting five would give 51.9 points per game. Another 20-25 points a game would be neeeded from the bench. Luckily, they would still have the talent riding the pine to give it. At this point, if you're not marvelling at the depth and thinking Bill Self is a genius, while also wondering just how this all worked out somehow for us to have this many players that are so good, you're thankless. It's really not fair.
Let's run through this year's Big 12 schedule quickly and tally up the wins and losses and try to decide whether this team could really pull it off. @Nebraska - W, Texas Tech - W, Baylor - W, @ Iowa State - W, Missouri - W, @Kansas State - L, @Colorado - W, Nebraska - W, @Texas - L, Iowa State - W, @Texas A&M - W, Colorado - W, Oklahoma - W, @Oklahoma State - W, Kansas State - W, @Missouri - L. That's 13-3 with a loss to Texas. (Home winning streak still intact, by the way.) So, Texas would have to drop four conference games for Kansas to pull it off. @Kansas State, @Oklahoma State, @Oklahoma and @Missouri could be those four. Not likely, though. Texas is too deep (and not down their five best players, either), so Kansas would likely lose the Big 12 regular season title for the first time in six years. What a good run it was. We'll start a new one next year, you better believe it. Wait, what's that you say? You mean that we do get to use those starting five players this year and accomplish multiple unprecedented feats? I'm just not sure that I can handle celebrating another National Championship. But, if somebody has to do it, I can't think of anyone better to take the responsibility than Jayhawk Nation.
Verdict: It is safe to say that this "second team" wouldn't finish the season 40-0, cutting down the nets in Indianapolis and going down as the all-time greatest and winningest single season team in college basketball history - as the real life team is destined to accomplish. This would also just be a tough year to win the Big 12, with Texas being so good and all. But, give 95% of Division 1 programs the option to go to the Sweet 16 on a yearly basis as this squad would, and I'll bet you your Snak-Pak they would take it!!
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I say no to the Big 12 simply because the experience wouldn't be there...
the talent is solid without a doubt, but Texas is too good, K-State looks very good and MU is talented enough that they could pose serious problems for a young team like this. Self does some amazing work at times but I think he’d have a tough time pulling this rabbit out of his hat. I’d say it breaks down like this…
@Nebraska – W, Texas Tech – 50/50, Baylor – W, @ Iowa State – W, Missouri – W, @Kansas State – L, @Colorado – W, Nebraska – W, @Texas – L, Iowa State – W, @Texas A&M – 50/50, Colorado – W, Oklahoma – W, @Oklahoma State – 50/50, Kansas State – 50/50, @Missouri – L.
That breaks out to 3 sure losses and 4 50/50 games off the top of my head without much research to be perfectly honest. With that in mind puts us at 11-5, no way that wins the conference this year.
In the long term Kansas’ bench is very deep and very talented but at this point it’s also very inexperienced. CJ Henry, EJ, TRob, Withey, Releford are all essentially first year players in terms of Big 12 competition. That’s where my hesitation is. That and I think Texas and K-State would be too much for that group as it stands today.
Another winner though KC
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I'd say @ Iowa St.
is 50/50, some damn good teams have lost to Hilton magic
by I need more Esteban on Jan 5, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
I was leaning that way....
but I don’t think they’ve looked terribly good so far and that was my only hesitation.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I'm curious
Why did you leave off Little and Releford? If we lost the five starters, surely they wouldn’t be red-shirting, right? That might leave a starting lineup something like:
PG-CJ/EJ
SG-Tyrel/Brady
SF-Releford/Little
PF-Kieffer/Robinson
C-Robinson/Withey
Frankly, I think this lineup probably goes 13-3 in the league, which, if the chips fall right, might win the Big XII. I still voted no in the poll, just based on KC88’s lineup.
One more caveat: if Xavier doesn’t come, I don’t think there’s any way CJ ends up here, just fyi.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
I think that Markieff and Brady shouldn't be mentioned with the second team
Because they both get a ton of first team minutes. So after eliminating those two, here is my starting lineup with the scrub a dubs:
CJ Henry
Relly Ice
Little
TRob
Withey
Elijah backs up the two guards, Releford plays a lot of three, etc. Also can go small and fast with a lineup of
CJ
Elijah/Tyrel
Releford
Little
TRob
Since little played a lot of 4 last year. This lineup lacks size but its athleticism is insane. Could just run on people old skool Roy style.
I think this group of players would likely win around 10 games and make the tourny. In past big12s this team would have a shot to challenge for the league title, this year not happening, league is too stacked. Still an interesting topic for sure.
Kieff and Brady don't start though...
I think they are a big part of the overall assessment.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Yeah I meant it in terms of splitting the teams in two
Have team A:
Sherron
TyShawn
X
Marcus
Cole
Brady
Markieff
Fill rest of bench with creatures of scrub, frosh, etc
Team B:
CJ
Tyrel
Itsa mea Mario
TRob
Withey
Releford
Elijah
Teahan
Now to make things interesting, those are two different teams. While team A gets hurt on some losing some depth, etc, we will just pretend the scrub peoples and frosh can replace what, say a TRob gives us for arguments sake. Now how about this….
1) How does team A and B do in league play? I say A goes 14-2 and B goes 10-6 (mostly cuz Self proves that he can win with youngins, scrubs, whatever).
2)What happens if team A and B play each other strait up? Score predictions?
I say team A wins, but not by as much as some might say. A takes down B 75-63. However if A and B met three times in a season, wouldn’t be surprised if B won one.
3) How would team B fare in the tourny? I think a sweet 16 appearance wouldn’t be crazy. Wouldn’t be shocked if they lost to a double B school either
My hotpocket right now is so good. For all you haters out there try the breakfast hot pockets. Really really good.
by Andrew Clark on Jan 5, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Team A wins 13 or 14…goes to the elite 8 at a minimum…probably final 4
Team B wins 9-11…goes to the sweet 16 at best
Head to head I’ll say A-team 78 B-team 65. Here’s why…
Withey is too raw to handle Cole. CJ, EJ and Tyrel won’t score as effectively against Team A’s D vs. the competition they’ve played so far. Releford and Little would surprise a though.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Sounds reasonable to me
Denver Jayhawk, a modest man, he will always listen to reason
by Andrew Clark on Jan 5, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
oh.....
but your hotpocket blows
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I couldn’t let you think I was getting soft or something
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
all that ever happens to me
with hot pockets is I burn the roof of my mouth with molten cheese. Hot Pockets and Mini-Pizzas. I see that you still have the metabolization of a 23 year old…
Turner Gill is introduced to the Kansas Athletic dept:
Gill, I'm Bill and this is Phil. Gill, I'm Phil and this is Jill. Gill, I'm Jill, you know Bill, Phil...
Very interesting topic
No way they’d win the Big 12, but make the NCAA tournament, for sure. Not many other programs can even say that.
by I need more Esteban on Jan 5, 2010 9:29 AM CST reply actions
I voted Yes
Primarily because the ‘could’ is a very open word.
First, I would suspect that the starters would be
Reed
Morningstar
Little
Markieff Morris
Robinson
That is based solely on playing time right now. Read is the fourth Guard right now and I certainly think could handle a starting PG role in this offense because he wouldn’t have a carry a heavy load with CJ and Elijah coming off the bench a lot, and one of them probably playing point in close games at the end.
Morris, Robinson and Withey probably work in a playing rotation similar to Arthur, Jackson, and Kaun of 2007-08.
Now to ‘could.’ ‘Could’ I think implies that Self would have started the season with these players and spent he preseason and non-conference pushing them into the roles he thinks they are capable of.
The last five years KU has won the Big 12 with teams more and less talented than this. Texas would be hard! At K-State would be hard aswell. We wouldn’t go undefeated, but I think 11 or more wins is more than likely.
I think second or third is easily what would happen with that team. First would be possible, but most likely a split championship would be the means to such a crown. Texas would have to take some loses, which is entirely possible. Self has shown that he can take inexperienced players and win the Big 12. Rick Barnes has shown he can take inexperienced players and finish second.
by Chyladin on Jan 5, 2010 1:59 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
You're right.
Saying “could” does leave open possibility and leave room for interpretation. It could happen, although it probably wouldn’t.
Great point, though.
lol can't have a CKC without KC - Nicholai Khabibulin (LN21)
yes, and fine-lining the semantics is never the way to go on the interwebs
but i made my Yes vote for the same reason. i think the reserves could manage to lose only one or two, especially if you consider that nearly all of them would be starters on most every other B12 team
Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot...buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath & Beyond, I don't know...I don't know if we'll have enough time.
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 5, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
F*ck yes they'd win the Big 12
All these guys that are “too raw” would be getting plenty of development through the non-con and early Big 12 play. Withey would become a shotblocking force. CJ and EJ would become an unstoppable duo on the perimeter a la Mario and RussRob. T-Rob would receive enough minutes that the game would “slow down” for him and he’d be a lot further along in reaching his awesome potential. And Kieff would learn to put his defenders into severe foul trouble, decimating what few big men other schools might have to throw at us.
Texas is the only team in the conference that could match up down low with Withey/Robinson/Kieff. HCBS brings the Significant Strategic Advantage, and we’d roll through the league. Meanwhile, Texas would blow a game or two just like they always do, because Rick Barnes isn’t a good in-game coach.
PROVE ME WRONG.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Jan 5, 2010 2:01 PM CST reply actions
“CJ and EJ would become an unstoppable duo on the perimeter a la Mario and Russ Rob”
First year for both these guys. I don’t think they’d develop enough in a non con season like we had to be fully prepared to draw Mario/RussRob similarities.
T-Rob – Comparing the year one to year two development of nearly every big man since Bill Self/Danny Manning have been around I’d say it takes a full season and not a half a year against mediocre competition.
Kieff – I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one but you see him now, he’s better but not a dynamic big man by any means.
“too raw” doesn’t become conference champs over night. If anyone can do it it’s Bill Self, but K-State is solid this year and experienced. Texas is a very good team as well. Throw in a Missouri team that is developing and has some experienced players too and it gets interesting.
I’ll concede to Chyladin that they “could” win the Big 12, but sorry KG…I can’t go with an “F yes” they’d win.
Love the passion as always though. If there is one thing you are KG it’s enthusiastic, decisive and to the point. I’d be interested to see where Rivet falls on this : )
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Rivet no likey roundball.
Only like funny Stewie-head shaped ball..
Turner Gill is introduced to the Kansas Athletic dept:
Gill, I'm Bill and this is Phil. Gill, I'm Phil and this is Jill. Gill, I'm Jill, you know Bill, Phil...
yeah +1
Who is the go to guy on this team?
Who gets you that basket in crunch time when you really need one ala Sherron last year?
By conference season I think we’d be looking good and then by the end of conference we’d be hitting our stride, they would finish anywhere from 2-4 in this very deep conference this season but it would still be a fun team to watch.
by I need more Esteban on Jan 6, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
So, what I'm gathering from everyone is that
this would be a 10-6 or 11-5 team, right? So, that would be good for, what -2nd or 3rd in the Pac 10 and SEC?
lol can't have a CKC without KC - Nicholai Khabibulin (LN21)
I think most any other year
our 2nd 5 would win the Big XII but the league is so deep this year…
Turner Gill is introduced to the Kansas Athletic dept:
Gill, I'm Bill and this is Phil. Gill, I'm Phil and this is Jill. Gill, I'm Jill, you know Bill, Phil...
How do you get to 6?
Do you guys not have faith in the Phog? Or do you have us only winning two road games? I don’t see how they’d lose more than 4- @Texas, @KState, @Mizzou (maybe), and one big upset when they lose focus somewhere along the line.
PAY HEED, ALL WHO ENTER.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Jan 6, 2010 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
That's just what I was gathering from everybody.
I said 13-3 in the post.
lol can't have a CKC without KC - Nicholai Khabibulin (LN21)
In other years I'd agree with that
This year though not really, league is loaded. Lets think this way. The 2005 KU team, that had Mario, Brandon and Julian as frosh, russrob, sasha, darnell and co as sophs etc won a share of the league title at 13-3 and won the league torny. Would our B team this year beat that team? Interesting comparison.
FYI
This fanpost was linked to by Mike Miller in his Beyond The Arc blog on msnbc.com. Pretty sweet, I say. Well done, KC88!!!
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
Wow...
glad I front paged this thing. I would have looked pretty silly if I had held back. Damn nice work KC, linked by the big boys at MSNBC. Looks like you’re ready to skip town for the big time : )
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
We can hope.
Looks like you’re ready to skip town
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
by Warden11 on Jan 5, 2010 8:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Heh.
That should get some fanbases riled up. COME GET SOME, MISERY, KITTYCATS, AND TEJAS!

"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Jan 6, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Last night is proof that we couldn't probably win the league this season
no one but Sherron stepped up and there would be plenty of nights like that in the tough Big 12 slate if the B squad is all we had. 13-3 at best, realistically, 12-4 or 11-5. A solid finish and good for a 4-6 seed, not bad for a bench at all.
by I need more Esteban on Jan 7, 2010 5:40 PM CST reply actions
Not bad at all.
I also think if those guys had felt the pressure to score a little more often, it wouldn’t be as much of a problem. Last night it was a huge problem, I’m just happy we have Sherron.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Since the whole world is reading this now
Id just like to say that someone should pay me to blog. kthxbai
Beadlemaniacs - Award winning* college basketball blog
WOW...
You guys are actually seriously discussing whether or not Kansas’ second team could win the Big 12 in 2010!?!?!? Cornell just took you to the limit with your first team in Lawrence.
Maybe you ought to focus the first team winning the Big 12…
Maybe we are bored and just discussing stuff.
Maybe you should focus on whatever inferior team you root for instead of obsessing with us.
Trolleliminated
by Andrew Clark on Jan 10, 2010 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
I'm for Mizzou
and I’m on here fairly consistently during b-ball season. Call me a troll if you like. All I was saying was discussing whether or not your second team could win the Big 12 is silly. Its not even a reasonable question — against Missouri, which is hardly the cream of the crop in the Big 12, you’d have to either play your second five ALL game long while Missouri rotated 11 or you’d have to put out your third five too and they’d get hammered.
You are missing the overall point a bit
Its not whether or not we could trot out 5 guys and run with Mizzou (which would be suicide) its whether or not you formed a team out of our 5, how well they could perform on their own.
If you look at my analysis, I threw in that both team A and team B would have assumed good role players, because we are Kansas and usually have talent buried deep.
Now the Big12 is loaded this year no doubt, but think about it. Our team last year of Sherron, Cole and a bunch of frosh/soph role players went 14-2 and won the league outright.
In 2005 a team starting 3 frosh (Rush, CHalmers, JuJu) and two sophomores (RussRob, Kaun backed by sophs Giles and Jackson) went 13-3, tied texas for regular season title then murdered them in the title game.
Now with the team B I made, look at it. Is it really THAT much worse than 2005’s team or last year’s team. I’d say last year’s team is better due to Sherron and Cole, but 2005’s team, while they would go on to win it all later, but insanely young. Maybe the question of how our scrubs would do this year is a little out of place due to the league’s strength but in past years it would certainly be possible, given how crap the league was (if our team could destroy the league last year so bad with our youth and what we lost, it obviously was not a strong league)
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2010 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Oh and I apologize for the "inferior comment"
I thought you were another Kentucky fan on here talking smack and I’ve lost my mind dealing with those jerks. Over-reaction on my part.
Yes, I’d be more civil to a Tiger than a Kentucka person. You guys are supposed to hate us :)
by Andrew Clark on Jan 11, 2010 8:58 PM CST up reply actions
You were asking who mpfische
was the other day when we were trying to figure out who the hell Sherronismyfavoritesherrizieplayertheshiz guy was.
Now you know. KU Grad 08, meet mpfische.
Turner Gill is introduced to the Kansas Athletic dept:
Gill, I'm Bill and this is Phil. Gill, I'm Phil and this is Jill. Gill, I'm Jill, you know Bill, Phil...
by labbadabba on Jan 12, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wait now I know what?
I’m confused. I was Sherron
by Andrew Clark on Jan 12, 2010 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
mpfische...welcome back...
It’s a hypothetical scenario and one that we were tossing around prior to the Cornell game my friend. We all knew this team had not been sufficiently tested but it is a very deep and talented team but also fairly inexperienced so the question was thrown out for some discussion and debate.
Pretty clear that over 80% of us don’t think they would win it and we were just having some fun. Take a peek at the fanpost by Bensa where we all give our Big 12 predictions/toughest games remaining. You won’t find many delusional folks on here. We think we have a great shot to win the Big 12 and we do, but we also know that Mizzou, K-State and obviously Texas will present major challenges among others. Winning it with the first team will be tough, but there are plenty outside of Kansas fans that have drooled at the overall depth of the team.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.





















