The "Stepping Stone" Issue
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 8:37 PM CST
57 comments
I know we've already got a good discussion going on what coach we'd like to see replace Mangino. One of the biggest concerns many people have (which I share) is that if we bring in some up-and-coming hotshot, they might use us as a stepping stone to bigger and better things, and we would lose any momentum we've built in trying to develop the program.
So that got me thinking- where in the national pecking order does KU football sit? I think the best way to look at that question is to ask, "what place gives me the best chance at winning a national championship?" After all, any coach gunning for a top program will obviously have that as their ultimate goal in line.
Obviously, we're not a Tier 1 Program. My Tier 1 looks something like this:
Florida, Texas, USC, LSU, Miami, Alabama, Florida State (maybe), Michigan, Ohio State, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame (maybe), Nebraska, and Tennessee.
Each of these programs has an inherent recruiting advantage from their region and/or prestige.
After that, however, things get muddled IMO. The rest of the SEC clearly has passionate fan support, but is it any easier to win the SEC West at a place like Arkansas than it is to win the Big 12 North at KU?
If you throw out emotional ties a new coach might have to places like their alma mater, where might said hotshot coach go from KU? Mason left for Minnesota, but that had more to do with conflicts with the administration. And it's not like he went on to do more there than he ever did in Lawrence.
When I look at that Tier 1 list, I don't really see any jobs opening up any time soon, except for possibly Michigan (which could end up with Les Miles, opening up LSU).
So where do you think a hotshot coach looking to use KU as a launching pad onto bigger and better things would end up? Where does KU football currently rank in terms of "prestige" (which is admittedly an ambiguous term)? On the one hand, we have almost no local recruiting base, fan support has financially been good, but emotionally spotty, and have no real tradition to sell to players. On the other hand, we've got top-of-the-line practice facilities, we're willing to spend top dollar on a coach, and we have an athletic director that will be extremely supportive to whatever you need.
What schools out there scare you about taking away a young coach we might hire that shows a lot of promise?
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Yeah, this thing is largely jibberish
Hopefully y’all can get my point.
Realistically, within the next five years I could see these jobs with more tradition opening up:
Michigan (and then possibly LSU)
Penn State (or do they already have a succession plan in place for JoePa?)
A&M (this one really spooks me, to be honest)
West Virginia (this one doesn’t spook me, to be honest)
Auburn
Cal
Ole Miss
Other than that, though, I have a hard time figuring out where a coach might bolt to. Would any mid-level ACC, Big Ten, or Pac 10 program really be more appealing? Does any coach out there dream of some day making it to the Big East?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 8:47 PM CST reply actions
I wouldn't want to coach at AandM
You play Texas OU OSU and Tech who all have a talent advantage against you. Every year. Baylor is about equal to where you are at, and most of the North is close.
It is in Texas and easier to recruit, etc but being in the South is a bloodbath these days. I’d almost take KU instead where the schedule is a lot easier. I dunno, I look at things through crimson and blue lenses :)
KU schedule...
isn’t that much easier. Every 2 seasons we play three of the South heavy hitters. Besides, Nebraska is becoming a factor and MU looks to be maintaining a solid program.
Yeah but thats the product of a big time conference
You must admit when it comes down to it you’ll take playing ANY north team and Baylor/AandM over Texas and OU, and likely TTech and OSU too.
I totally agree...
I was just pointing out that North schools have a tough conference schedule just as the South schools do.
Yeah
Really our conference is getting so balanced. ISU is better, Baylor better, CU always a wildcard, KSU will be a middle of the road team for the next few years (fantastic coach, average at best talent) MIzzou and Nebraskie are going to be very solid for a while, Texas juggernaut, OU will get back up there, Tech is always a force with their O, AandM is developing a very good O, OSU talented and can score.
Very deep league, very deep. Its gonna be wild!
While they may have a talent advantage over A&M right now, I don’t think that is set in stone. They’ve hired a series of really bad coaches, but still have a good amount of talent, IMO. I don’t know if they could ever get to the UT/ OU level, but they certainly could be the third best program in the South with the right coach. And if you catch a few breaks, you might be able to make a run. I think it’s a pretty good job, personally.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
Facilities are as nice as it gets, too.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Forgot them
Definitely Tier 1.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
I would say we're in Tier 3
And our facilities are not really “top of the line”. We just brought them up to the standards of the rest of the conference. But they are new(er) than many in the conference. So we got that going for us.
Fans support is weak.
No real traditions.
Not a very strong recruiting base.
Yeah, Tier 3 sounds about right.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
Your constant negativity around here is growing tiresome.
You don’t sell 7,200 season tickets in a single day with basically no head coach and after losing 7 in a row if your fan support is “weak.”
And where are you getting your information on our facilities? Because several announcers have said on telecasts that KU’s facility was, in fact, one of the nicest they’ve seen in the country.
Name some “Tier 2” schools that a coach would eagerly leave us for.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
No one is forcing you to read my posts.
I’m being objective. If you don’t like it, sorry. I’m not going to drink the kool aid. I’ll think for myself.
You think an empty student section after half-time is strong fan support? Shitty Slow Ten schools like Northwestern and Indiana would laugh at that. Hell even fans at a basketball school like Michigan State would laugh at that.
7,200 is a nice number. But they may have been purchased just so a WEF member could gain $2000 worth of priority points for a $400 investment. We’ve already had this discussion.
Yes, our facilities were extremely nice when they were brand new two season ago. It was a great topic for the telecasters to talk about (look at the commitment KU is making to football). It was long overdue to bring our facilities up to the standards of the rest of the league (minus a few). But “top of the line”? Not quite.
Arizona, Cal, Oregon, Michigan State, Arkansas, Texas A&M, are schools I consider tier 2, just to throw out a few. The tier structure would definitely look like a pyramid (only a few in tier 1, a few more in tier 2, and many more in tier III).
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
by Rivethead on Dec 3, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Indiana would kill for our crowd
My brother goes there and said a KU game has so many more people, support, interest, etc than an IU game. Northwestern’s average attendance I think is in the 30,000’s. Lets not jump the old gun too quick.
I find it interesting you bring up Arizona as a tier two school when they’ve had a winning team for 2 seasons now and were terrible before. The rest I’d agree with, although I doubt someone would jump from KU to AandM in conference.
I try to avoid koolaid as much as I can but I think you may be being a little harsh with KU football in regards to where we are at. I’ve seen the facilities, I think they are pretty noice. Compared to other schools or not they at least put us on an even playing field with other big12 schools.
I agree with you 100% that our game day fans need to perform better at games. Denver and I bitched about this for a while in a post a while back. But lets be thankful they are at least there. Baby steps right?
Overall, I feel our jobs as fans is to drink some of the koolaid and be optimistic in regards to our teams (and pessimistic towards Mizzou). I dont think any one of us ballers here on Rock Chalk Talk know what is going to happen with football, so we may as well hope and pray for the best. We could end up a lot better or a lot worse. So as my golf philosophy goes, its grip it and rip it time.
by KU Grad 08 on Dec 3, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn’t say anything about kool aid or not thinking for yourself, so spare me the martyr act.
I was a student at Northwestern, so let me tell you just how wrong you are about that. Northwestern doesn’t have home games. Technically they play half their schedule on campus, but they aren’t home games, because the other team ALWAYS has more fans there. On a good day, you’d be lucky to get 5,000 students to a game. Obviously you AREN’T being objective, because you clearly pulled that example out of your ass.
As for the, “nobody’s forcing you to read my comments” idea, don’t be that guy. This is obviously a small community that all wants the same thing- for KU sports to succeed. There’s no reason to start creating rifts in a community that’s just starting to grow. If I wanted to follow a blog where I need to ignore certain commenters, I’d go to Arrowhead Pride or the KCStar ghettos.
And I stand by my statement- your constant negativity is becoming tiresome. Why? Because it’s just so easy. We could all sit around here and b*tch about every little thing that isn’t perfect about KU Athletics, but why would any one want to come to a website like that?
I would be stunned if a successful coach at KU left for Arizona or Michigan State. I would be stunned if Cal or Oregon came calling on a Big 12 North coach to jumpstart their programs. And I think Petrino is about to do big things at Arkansas, so I’m not worried about losing a coach to them, either.
So if the only thing holding us back from getting a younger guy with a lot of potential is that we’re worried the Aggies will take him, what exactly is the problem?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, I admit Northwestern was a bad example
I’ve only witnessed one game in person…..the game against KU. And guess what? Not one of their fans left at half time. Were you there too? I guess that was just an exception?
As for trying to create a riff in a community….not sure how you came about that conclusion. I’m being objective. Nothing more. The whole reason I came to RCT is because I was looking for a place to discuss KU football with knowlegeable fans with different opinions. If I wanted to read nothing but rah-rah opinions I could have stayed at KUSports.com and weeded through the psychos over there. I thought RCT was different. I was wrong.
You think KU is a Tier 2 school. I don’t. I think we’re Tier 3. I gave you my reasons. Sorry you can’t accept that.
Who's next?
did I miss somewhere above...
where Tier 2 and Tier 3 were more clearly defined or examples given?
I guess at the moment I’d probably side with Rivet on this. I do think we are on the cusp of moving up the food chain but if I’m being honest with myself and looking at our rival to the East who I’d consider a 2nd tier football school…we’re still a tick behind.
I know we’ve got the Orange Bowl and all but we still don’t have a track record of sustained success. All the pieces are in place to make that happen and provide the resources to take us there but resources alone don’t make the program.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
found the examples above...guess I should read more carefully...
that said, while I agree with Rivet that KU is probably still a 3rd tier…I also have to agree with KG in that if emotional ties are put aside…I don’t see a coach using Kansas as a stepping stone job to a 2nd tier program. A 1st tier yes, but 2nd tier no. Plus if the next guy we bring in is successful…I think I’d be comfortable in putting us in that 2nd tier here in the near future.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
whew.
Thanks Denver. I was getting a little nervous.
I don’t like it when mommy and daddy are fighting… : (
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
i'd have to agree.
you have to look at the history of a program… before mangino ku had 3 bowl wins in it’s entire 101 year history.. grant it the bowl system isn’t 101 years old, but you get my point. Mangino proved that you can win at Kansas, but it is not on the tier 2 level of schools like wvu, michigan state, pitt, ole miss, tennesee, cal, etc., Taking the football reputation into account, it’s near the top of tier 3.
Kansas is obviously not a recruiting hotbed, but neither is nebraska, or south bend, or many other places for that matter, but if you win, kids will want to come to your school.
I think you guys have a good shot at any of these hot name coaches like kevin sumlin (who i hope to God doesn’t take the job) harbaugh, gill, holtz, etc., but if they have any real success they will leave eventually, because we all know that college football ultimately belongs to the big name programs- check the top 25 in any given year to figure out who that is- every one else is fighting for the scraps.
So why isn't Pinkel in consideration for the ND job?
Heh.
So you think a coach would leave KU for WVU, Michigan State, etc. given the (likely) fact that they wouldn’t be making any more money there? Unless they have some kind of emotional tie to that program, can you really say that Ole Miss is in any better position to win the SEC, or Michigan State is to win the Big Ten, than KU is to win the Big XII?
And if they have no better chance of winning their conference there, and they have no emotional reasons for going there, and they aren’t going to get a pay raise, or have better facilities, why would they move?
And if they wouldn’t move to these so-called Tier 2 programs, what’s the point in calling the Kansas job Tier 3?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 6, 2009 1:56 AM CST up reply actions
History
Look at Rutgers, South Florida, and Boise State as three programs with basically no history at all that now do a very good job of recruiting- 30 or so years ago, Boise was a community college!
Turner Gill was able to get enough talent to win 10 games at a school that hadn’t even made a bowl game in 50 or so years, and that was in Buffalo. Buffalo! Have you ever been to Buffalo? It’s hell! No kid in his right mind would want to go to college there!
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 6, 2009 2:01 AM CST up reply actions
Great question here.
I honestly think it’s about 5 or 6 schools in tier 1, those schools will get the coach they want. However, if you go back 10-15 years you’ll see Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, Michigan, Florida State, Penn State, and a lot of other schools that fell well below the top 5 or 10 schools from year to year. These programs are products of the coaching they have at the moment, don’t forget Florida went through Zook. Texas went through Mackovic, OU went through Schnellenberger and Blake. As untouchable as these schools seem now, a change in coaching could easily change that.
Point being, it’s all about the hire. Kansas (with the right hire) could become a top 25 team year in and year out.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Oh I would definitely agree that the wrong guy can screw up even the best of situations. But I think those programs I’ve named are the best situations- that is, they are the “easiest” places, for various reasons, to create a powerhouse football program.
But more to the point, what kinds of schools would you be scared about having the next KU coach leave us for, if he turns out to be an up-and-coming hotshot?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 3, 2009 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
It be nice if we can get a Bill Snyder type
Someone who takes his team to success and then realizes “shit, I’m in the Big12 North. I have a chance to win this and be in the big12 title game every year and I’m not leaving what I’ve built.”
Two things,
1. If a guy is able to leave because he is an up and coming hotshot, I’ll take it. That means he has shown success at KU. Honestly, I think a team that is successful year in and year out could turn Kansas into a high tier II (arbitrary as hell, but since it’s already part of the conversation).
2. Agree with you and other people that KU is about as good as most schools in the nation. Alma maters are always out there, so that’s always a possibility. However, coaches leave for one of two reasons. Either a) ability to win a national championship and that’s as likely at Kansas as anywhere because of the B12 north, recruiting will be tougher but it’s not like you’re recruiting to Wisconsin AND b) money, Lew and Mangino have shown that Kansas will pay you. Mangino was in the top 20 in terms of salary, right? So very few schools are paying more than Kansas. If a guy was a knockout success, I can see that number going higher.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Wisconsin recruits well every year
They constantly have dominate lines because they raise them big ol son bitches boys, and don’t forget that there is a ton of high school talent in Ohio and other populous areas.
Sorry had to stick up for my second favorite team :)
I'm talking more about the weather part of it.
The big talk about recruiting now is “warm-weather” states, Wisconsin isn’t one. Kansas isn’t one, but it sure as hell isn’t a cold-weather state either.
Fair enough?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
No not fair enough Jerk
Just kidding. Warm weather states definitely have more high school talent/ powerhouse programs. If we can continue to get more and more top notch talent from Texas it’ll go a long way determining our success
Goof topic
As or recruiting, Kansas is not in a position where we will get any 5 star stud recruits. Right now, we are fighting the top tier programs in recruiting (especially in the state of Texas) for their backup positions and special teams players. We are at a point where for us to be successful we have to overachieve with our players. I agree, the next hire for KU is crucial. I can only hope it is someone for the long term. Kansas has started moving in the right direction as far as becoming a relevant program, but the latest issues have set us back. I just don’t want ti revert back to 4-5 win seasons.
Sure you did.
I feel that any topic started by someone whose signature includes “Rodd Teesing” and “Rapscallion” is fair game to be called goofy. (Just messing with you KGRTC)
This is for Denver from above, but everyone feel free to chime in
I guess at the moment I’d probably side with Rivet on this. I do think we are on the cusp of moving up the food chain but if I’m being honest with myself and looking at our rival to the East who I’d consider a 2nd tier football school…we’re still a tick behind.
I know we’ve got the Orange Bowl and all but we still don’t have a track record of sustained success. All the pieces are in place to make that happen and provide the resources to take us there but resources alone don’t make the program.
What are the differences in these “tiers” besides the coach and success in the last 5 years? From what I can tell, very little. Kansas made the commitment with the facilities and the coaching pay, I can’t see any reason to consider Mizzou or any random Big 10/Pac 10/ Big East school as a better job than Kansas. All potential coaches might not agree due to emotions, but from an objective standpoint what do any of those schools offer that KU does not?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Yeah, it's (evidently) a touchy issue for some
but I kinda think there’s not a significant difference between tiers 2 and 3. Even if you put KU in tier 3 from a success standpoint, the head coach’s salary (what it was for MM, and what it presumably will be for our new coach) clearly puts us below the elite schools, but above a LOT of other BCS schools. I know it’s not all about money, but a lot of it IS about money. If we’re paying a head coach $2.5 million, that’s gonna be plenty to keep him from going to any job other than an elite school.
I don’t know enough about how our facilities compare to make a judgment there, but obviously, we’ve made some significant strides there recently.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
I'd say the difference for me is...
in the overall proven ability for sustained success. That includes W’s and L’s, Fan Support, Facilities, pay…the whole deal.
Not a huge difference in my mind but I’d say the national perception of a program takes all those things into account. The talking heads on television always talk about resources and track record showing a school as a place where it’s proven you will get the support and proven you can win.
Kansas has never pumped the resources in during past years. We have that now. The support is better, but just as our W’s and L’s there has still not been a long term sustained success to speak of at any point. Orange Bowl doesn’t count for much when it’s a huge spike on an otherwise meaningless stretch of seasons.
We’re getting there and Lew has positioned the job in the right way. Hopefully the guy they bring in can keep the momentum going and we’ll get there. With or without Mangino though this is an ongoing process. You don’t go from neglecting a football program for 100 years to a powerhouse overnight.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I get where you're coming from, I just think all of us have way overblown perceptions on the strength of a lot of schools.
in the overall proven ability for sustained success.
I am convinced the line between sustained success and failure is extremely wide and blurry.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Good Points
But what I wonder is this: does the media-driven “national perception” of the football program reflect that of the “coaches perception”?
Yeah, we haven’t had sustained success. But if I’m a head coaching candidate, isn’t this the type of job where you’ve got a lot of opportunity? You’ve got some talent on your team already. You’re gonna get mad paid. You’re gonna be able to pay good salaries to assistants. You’ve got great facilities to attract recruits. And you’ve got one of the best ADs in the country on your side.
None of that really shows up much in the “national perception,” IMO- I’ve been on some boards where people were absolutely stunned that someone like Phil Fulmer would even consider a “rinky dink school that had one fluke year against a weak schedule.” I would hope that any good coaching candidate would look into our program and see that there’s more than that. I dunno.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 5, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
They will
People on other boards just post that because they are afraid we are going to get a good coach and become better than the school they root for, or are just negative nancys hating on message boards
Let's remember that the
KSHSAA has recently revamped their restrictions regarding spring and summer football. I think we’ll see a difference in the coming years in the quality prospects coming out of the Kansas wheat fields and Wichita parking lots.
We need to be more present at home and keep what in-state talent we have here.
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
I'd be absolutely ecstatic...
if whoever we hire can somehow get us back into the McCay, Bell and Randle sweepstakes. All three are committed but it’s also been said that all three really didn’t give KU a look because of Mangino’s reputation.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Yeah getting Kansas talent to come to KU is key
Plus we’ve seen in the past that a lot of guys from in-state were massively underrated in recruit rankings
Recruiting
It’s going to be interesting to see how that would play a part in things.
If they get the coup in Harbaugh, does anyone follow?
Certainly if Houston’s coach comes, you’ve got a very similar offensive system. I could potentially see a recruit or two from their following here. There’s also the possibility that current recruits will de-commit, also.
I wish some of this had happened roughly a week ago. I had a chance to talk to an Iowa commit, DT Carl Davis Jr., who Kansas offered. They were trying to get Davis, along with LB Charlie Walker as a teammate package deal.
Walker isn’t nearly the prestigious recruit Davis (a 3-star in Rivals system) is. I talked to Walker after his state semi-final victory and he said that he’ll be visiting Kansas this month (they’ve already offered him). I’ll be curious as to if he still plans on visiting and I might follow up there. He’s conceivably a 2-star type of guy (also offered by a lot of MAC schools).
If I have a chance to talk to any other guys with interest, I’ll chime in any news I hear.
FakeTeams.com - SBNation's Fantasy Source
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by Bryan Everson (The Royalty of Roto) on Dec 4, 2009 3:54 PM CST reply actions
I would be curious to see how
kansas fans would react to a guy like Chris Klenakis the Off Cord from Nevada. Is he a huge name like Harbaugh NO, but he is young,runs a prolific offense,has a lot of upside.
My personal opinion is that regardless of who it is I'll be taking a bit of a wait an see approach...
certain names would obviously bring instant recognition and perhaps more fanfare from the fanbase, but in the end W’s and L’s will be decided on the field.
I think a guy like Klenakis maybe provides Kansas the opportunity to keep some of the current staff, which would be good for keeping some of the current class as well as some continuity. At the same time he is a new face and a relative unknown in terms of recruiting Big12 country.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I just want a defensive coach.
Find me a relative unknown that is a proven D coordinator, and I’ll be much happier than the OC from Nevada.
What?
Next thing you'll say is you don't want Charlie Weis!
by hunter s. royal on Dec 4, 2009 10:55 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah I saw it.
And I loved it. Offense is nice, but I love me some hard-hitting defense. If the coach has a mustache, all the better.
But just to clarify.
He’s not quite at the top of my list of preferred coaches.
Except for Pitt, of course
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 5, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
NEW ISSUE:
If Stoops to ND is true, who does Oklahoma go after? Do they promote from within? Do they go get Kelly? Does it affect the KU search?
The coaching carousel goes round and round….
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 6, 2009 12:49 AM CST reply actions
KU Grad, get a hold of that and throw some faces on that fucker.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
by Warden11 on Dec 6, 2009 12:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
personally....
I don’t think it factors into our search too much.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
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