Turner Gill Introductory Press Conference Recap
Some of you watched it, some of you heard it and others weren't able to so here's a recap for everyone and yet another chance to discuss the new football coach at Kansas, Turner Gill. Also included are player quotes from Kale Pick, Toben Opurum, Brad Thorson, Jonathan Wilson and Chris Harris
I do think it's important to temper expectations a bit because Gill certainly knows what he needs to say in this situation and personally I look forward to celebrating success on the field as opposed to a press conference.
That said, this one was top notch. Gill very quickly, confidently and decisively talked about his decision, his X's and O's, his type of player, his type of program and how he views Kansas in his career.
It was certainly hard not to walk away from this thing with a smile on your face. Gill will be meeting with players tonight, talking with coaches likely today and very, very soon Gill will be taking this class act on the road to visit with current commits and recruits to sell them on Kansas football. I have to say, I like our chances.
One other item worth noting is the current player reaction. It is overwhelmingly positive. Sure, I imagine some of that might change as guys find they don't quite fit in the new program or their expectations were a bit high, but rarely during a coaching change do you see this type of enthusiasm for the change. The outlook is positive in the locker room. One player told me, "I just wish we didn't have to wait 9 more months to get back on the field."
Athletics Director Lew Perkins:
Opening Statement:
"I really do want to thank the media. Obviously this process has taken 10 days or so, and I think everybody was great about respecting what we were trying to do. I know there were all kinds of rumors going around. I appreciate everybody letting us do our job. Obviously, the outcome is something that I'm extremely pleased about."
"We're going to do something a little different. In my 40 years of college athletics this is something unique. I'm going to ask (junior offensive lineman) Brad Thorson to read something that he received yesterday from a young man at Buffalo. I'm going to ask Brad to read this for us."
Note from Dane Robison, Buffalo senior defensive lineman, to Brad Thorson, Kansas junior offensive lineman:
"Hey,
I just wanted to say you guys over at KU, you're getting a great football coach. Keep your worries minimal. I know that this transition doesn't come off good parting terms with your previous head coach, and I know change can be a scary thing - not really knowing what you're really getting. But same was the case when I was a freshman back in 2005 and Coach Gill was just as new to me as he is going to be to you. But in those four years, he has transformed everything we do here at Buffalo: the way we carry ourselves, how we view the game of football and how we view ourselves as football players.
If he has taught us anything here at UB, it's to believe; to believe in ourselves, to believe in this program and to believe in each other. His philosophy and style will always be to treat each one of you guys as people first and players second. He's going to help you use football as a catalyst to better yourselves and your life right now and after football. Keep your minds and hearts open with everything he has to offer.
I'll leave you guys with one last thought from our mission statement. UB stands for `You Believe'. Each letter of the word BELIEVE stood for what this program was going to be about. The letter `B' was for believe, in each other and in things not yet seen. We believe and it's taken us to great things as players, as a team, as a program and as a community.
Good luck to each and every one of you."
Kansas Director of Athletics Lew Perkins
Continuing his opening statement:
"We interviewed some great people, but I believe in my heart that there was no question that we found the person who we needed to coach our football team at this particular time. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a great music guy, especially 60's music. Coming in this morning, I was picking up Turner this morning, and there was a song that came on: "Magic Moment" by The Drifters. I started thinking about that, that this is a magic moment at the University of Kansas. This is a magic moment for our football team. I have all kinds of things about Turner, how he won a conference title at Buffalo, he helped Nebraska win three national championships, he was a runner-up himself, he coached a Heisman Trophy winner in Eric Crouch and an All-American in Tommy Frazier. It goes on and on."
"But for the things we were looking for, we were looking for somebody who has passion for the game of football, we were looking for somebody who has passion for people, we were looking for somebody that knows the Big 12, and somebody who can recruit Texas and Oklahoma and all of the places that we want to recruit. But also the fact that he can recruit nationally. I personally believe that Turner can go into any home and get any player. I've known Turner for several years, and I've talked to everybody in the country - I can't tell you how many people I've talked to. Everybody has said to me that you can not go wrong with Turner Gill. I don't want to call him the next great star in coaching, because he is already a great star in coaching. He's a phenomenal person, he knows football as well as anybody and he's a great people person and somebody that I respect personally, long before we even thought about Turner coming here. I met Turner about four years ago, and we connected then. I'm just so excited about him coming here and being part of the Jayhawk nation."
On trying to get somebody who was unlike the previous coach:
"I think as we looked for a head coach, there was no question that I wanted somebody who was extremely positive. We look for that in any sport, whether it be a basketball coach, or tennis coach or golf coach. I think a positive attitude is something that is very paramount. I've known Turner for a while, and one of the things that I've heard talking to other people is not only how positive he is, but how competitive he is. And he fit the mold. It's kind of like a puzzle, trying to find that last piece, and Turner fit that last piece, there's no question."
On what made Turner a good fit:
"I think as we evaluated the needs of our football program, and began evaluating somebody with his background; he really fit what we needed. We needed somebody who was a competitor, somebody who understood the Big 12, somebody who obviously played in the Big 12 - or at that time the Big Eight. When he started to tell me about the staff he started to put together, I was absolutely ecstatic about that; the quality of the people, with their football knowledge. It's important to recruit Texas, and it's important that Turner is from Texas. If he can get kids from Texas to go to Buffalo, I'm sure he can get them to come to Kansas. And that's no knock on Buffalo, it's just closer to home here, and a little warmer. He's a players' coach, I thought that was important. At the end of the day, he wanted to be at Kansas. We talked about that at great length. That was as important as anything to me; he wanted to be here for a long period of time. There are just so many pieces to the puzzle that he fit."
Head Coach Turner Gill:
Opening statements:
"It's a great day to be a Jayhawk. I want to thank Chancellor Bernadette Gray-Little and Athletic Director Lew Perkins. On behalf of our family, we thank you for the opportunity to be here at an outstanding university. It is an honor and a privilege and we don't take that very lightly. [The head coaching job at] KU is a great job to have. It has been shown that you can win here. I want to talk about some of the legacy that has already been built here. Gale Sayers was here, and John Hadl. Obviously, James Naismith was here for basketball and Jim Ryun was great in track. John Riggins, Lynette Woodard, Steve Jeltz, a former baseball player here, and a current guy here, Todd Reesing. Kansas Athletics has a phenomenal history and outstanding tradition. Our purpose of this program is to bring this program to a point where we will sustain a winning football tradition year after year. When I think of KU, I think of one of the most beautiful campuses in the country, unparalleled leadership and a nationally-recognized university, both athletically and academically. It has an outstanding location, right here in the heart of the Midwest of this great nation. We will be able to recruit all over the country and families will be able to get to the Kansas City area and Lawrence to come see their sons play. It is a phenomenal research and teaching institution. Students are passionate about athletics here at this university. Those are some things that come to mind when I think about the University of Kansas. There is a tremendous alumni base. Also, the people here in Lawrence are engaged in this community and each other."
"The staff that will be here at KU will be second-to-none. I just want to mention that our offensive coordinator will be Chuck Long, right here. I could go on and on about his accolades, but I'll just mention a few of them. He's coached a Heisman Trophy winner, he's coached a Maxwell Award winner and an O'Brien Award winner. As the offensive coordinator at Oklahoma he set many records. He also has a passion for teaching young men about life with football and teaching young men about life after football. Also, the defensive coordinator, who was unfortunately not able to be here, but is on his way here at this point in time. Carl Torbush, a former head coach, just like Chuck Long, has been the defensive coordinator in the ACC, in the SEC and has been in the Big 12. Again, he has a passion about being able to teach young men about the same things we're going to do here. Our coaching staff needs to have a proven record on and off the field, as I've already mentioned about the two young men that will be our coordinators. As I put the staff together, that's what it's going to stand for."
"Also, you want to know what we're going to do offensively. We're going to run some spread offense, but we're also going to incorporate a fullback into the game and do some two-backs occasionally. So we're going to do some of the same things you've seen here, but we're also going to do some things differently. Defensively, we'll have a four-three scheme, we're going to be an attacking defense and we're going to cause turnovers. We're going to create great field position."
"As for what I expect from our players, I expect them to get their college degree, I want them to reach their full potential as a man, as a student and obviously as a football player. We're going to have a similar theme as far as the "Believe" in this football program. We have to believe in each other and talk about trust and faith. We have to have that in our football program. We have to be able to empower people through encouragement. That's what I want the players to do. I want to teach them how to learn and continue to press on towards their goals academically, athletically and also with reaching out to the community and continuing to build relationships with whomever they come in contact with. I want them to know how to influence by being a positive role model. I want them to be able to expect great effort all the time out of the coaching staff, out of their teammates and everyone that's associated with this university and this community."
"I'm also going to teach them how to visualize excellence. They have to visualize how to do things in a proper way. Our coaching staff will teach those life skills and life strategies again on and off the football field. Of course we have to enjoy the college experience here at KU. We have to be able to do that. If you don't enjoy what you're doing, then it will be tough for you to go out and perform at the highest level that you can."
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit. Our criteria to recruit student-athletes are character--that will be the number one thing we'll look at, we're going to research, talk to as many people as possible to make sure we get the right people to fit KU. I'll only be interested in people that want to come here. Not coerced, not talked to, but they must be passionate about wanting to be a part of one of the greatest universities ever. We're going to have to have some people that are academically inclined to want to get their degree. Those are some criteria we're going to have from that perspective. And from a football skill standpoint, we want guys that can flat-out run, speed, athleticism, physicality and a passion. If I have all of those things, I have a great person, I have a great football player and a great man that's going to help this great country while we're playing football and after we play football. Lastly, I've been asked if I'm taking this job as a way to get to another program. The answer to that is a very decisive no. I did not come here to use it as a stepping stone to a football dynasty, but rather to create a football dynasty here at KU. Rock Chalk Jayhawk, KU!"
On if he knew he wanted Chuck Long right away:
"I knew if I had an opportunity at another institution, and I wouldn't say this 100 percent, but he was definitely on my radar screen as a top guy. There's a lot of commonality with these two guys. They have the same things in mind that I do with the student-athletes. That's more important to me than the X's and O's. I want to create an environment that's productive and where we can enjoy coming to work every day. That's just how I'm wired. That's just how I think we should build a program. More importantly, it's how we can sustain it. That's what it's all about. If we can be consistent every day and go out and do the best job we can do, there will be some excellent things that will take place here."
On building relationships with current players:
"I build relationships. I'm going to get to know them in a deep way. That starts tonight. They're going to get to know me in a deep way. As you build relationships, you build trust. It will take time, it won't happen overnight, but we'll spend some time together. We're going to talk about a lot of deep issues that are going on in their lives and also things that will happen in the future. Our coaching staff is going to get engaged with our student-athletes. We're here to win today. This is not a one year, two year, five year process or anything of that nature. I'm a competitor, I love to win and I've been blessed with many opportunities and have been successful wherever I've been. We're going to continue to make that happen here at Kansas."
Offensive Coordinator Chuck Long:
On Gill inviting him to the press conference and introducing him as the offensive coordinator:
"This is Turner Gill's day, as it should be. He called me up and said, `Hey do you want to come to the press conference, I'd love for you to come.' That's the kind of guy he is: very humble. I said I would love to come. I didn't hesitate to get on a plane. It says a lot about him and his humility because a lot of coaches wouldn't do that."
On starting work right away:
"Like he talked about, we're going to meet with the young men tonight. Transition is never easy and I know they have gone through some tough transition, so we're going to try to smooth that situation as quickly as possible tonight. We're anxious to meet everybody and see everybody. Tonight is going to be a step in that direction. Like he said about recruiting, we only have one more week before the dead period starts, so we need to get to all of those commitments and start there. I'm sure we'll be watching a lot of recruiting tape the next few days, but we're going to be at it right away."
On the players experiencing change with a new staff:
"There's going to be a lot of familiar schemes that they will recognize. But at the same time, change is inevitable in life. One of the things we'll talk about is that you have to adapt to that change quickly or you get left behind. The faster you can change the better."
Kansas Player Quotes
Junior Offensive Lineman Brad Thorson
On the letter received by Buffalo defensive lineman Dane Robinson about Coach Gill:
"I was really impressed. I couldn't even believe it when I read it. Honestly, I was shocked and I still am. I have shown it to my parents and so many other people in the athletic department. I can not believe the words that he had to say about Coach Gill, considering we are taking him from their program. I think it is amazing that they feel so positively about him and how excited they are about this opportunity for their former coach."
On his familiarity with Coach Gill and his expectations for the future of this program:
"I have only been to shake his hand a have a quick hello with him in the hallway before coming in here, and the next few weeks we are going to be off campus, but I can not wait to get back and start working with him."
On the different coaching style Coach Gill will bring, as he is a `players' coach':
"I think he is still a disciplinarian. Practice is still going to be tough and our workouts will still be tough, but I like the fact that he is a very successful former player. He knows what it takes to win. It takes hard work and dedication, so to have a coach who has played with that mentality and instills those principles is great for this team."
Junior Wide Receiver Jonathon Wilson
On Coach Gill's goal to get to know all the players on a deep, personal level:
"He said he really wants to build relationships. This upcoming season will be my last, and there are coaches that wouldn't want to mess too much with players who have already been here for awhile, but he said he wanted to build relationships with players that are already here, so that gets me really excited."
On the fact that Coach Gill has experience as an offensive player:
"I watched a couple of Buffalo's games this year, not knowing this was going to happen, but just because I caught them on TV and I remember noticing he ran a spread-type offense and did throw the ball. One of the issues that we may have worried about was brining in a guy who only ran the ball, but I'm glad we have a guy who throws the ball. I am really happy about that."
Freshman Running Back Toben Opurum
On the letter sent from Buffalo player to Kansas offensive lineman Brad Thorson:
"Brad said it speaks volumes about the head coach and I couldn't agree with him more. When a head coach leaves a program, a lot of players might feel a sense of betrayal, but with a player sending a message like that to where his head coach is going, it shows the type of support and respect that he's earned from his players back at Buffalo. I feel it will be the same way when he comes here."
On the significance of race in college football hires and Kansas' hiring of Gill:
"I think it says a lot for where society has come from a standpoint of him being the only black head coach in the Big 12 Conference. That says a lot. But at the same time, you have to look past the skin color and look at accolades and his character and other reasons why he was brought to this campus."
On his first impressions of head coach Turner Gill:
"I've heard he is a motivator of his athletes and a players-first coach. He obviously shared that with us today and left an impression that he is really going to take this program to another direction and gain a lot of support and respect from his athletes."
On change and building a relationship with Gill and his new staff:
"It's kind of disappointing that we have to wait so long for the football season to come back around. With him being here today and getting the chance to start building a relationship with him and his staff, it's a feeling of excitement and you can see that in the player's faces here and the people here that are all excited for the change that will occur around the program."
Junior Defensive Back Chris Harris
On what the last to weeks have been like for the players:
"It's been pretty tough on the team with not knowing what direction we're going in and who our coach is going to be. We're just so happy that we finally got a coach, just because the process took so long."
On what he knows about Turner Gill:
"Just what the Buffalo players are saying, that he's a players' coach, which is something that we haven't had really. That will be a big key because we'll be able to trust our coach a lot more. It's definitely nice to have a players' coach around, being able to build a relationship with him. It's so much nicer to have a players' coach because you build trust in your coach and you want to go out there (on the field) and fight for him. It helps out a lot."
On what Coach Gill said about improving in the classroom and off the field:
"Very few of us are going to go to the NFL, and after (playing at Kansas), we're going to have to find jobs. We won't be playing football all of our lives. It's just good that he is going to come in here and teach us how to be men, and how to carry ourselves off the field."
On what Coach Gill's biggest challenge will be:
"I think the players will fall right into whatever his plan is. I don't think that will be a challenge at all. I can't really say what his biggest challenge will be."
Freshman Quarterback Kale Pick
On his reaction to Turner Gill being named the next head coach:
"All I've heard so far are good things about Coach Gill. I'm really excited to get to work with him and build the relationship between me and him, and the rest of the team. I'm really looking forward to the team meeting later on tonight so I can get to know him better and know his coaching style better."
On what it means to `connect with your coach':
"It's very exciting news that we're going to have a great relationship with our coaches and we're fortunate to have a coach like that that wants to know us other than just as football players."
On his thoughts about running Gill's spread offense:
"I think it's great for our offense, mix and match a little bit. To mix it up on defenses, I think will make it more challenging for them. I'm looking forward to getting a hold of the playbook and start running right away."
On if he's nervous about what lies ahead:
"I wouldn't say I'm nervous, maybe more excited that we got the coach that we did. I was a little more anxious during the process, because I didn't know what to expect. But last night when Lew (Perkins) announced the head coach, I was really excited to work with him and get to know him better."
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154 comments
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Comments
really good quotes from the players
I can’t wait to hear more about the new assistants. Has anyone heard who is taking over at UB?
I’d love to see a big show of support for the spring game. I know I can’t wait to see what Coach Gill is going to do with the team.
I always...
say I’m going to get back for that but I might just really do it this year depending on when it is
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Their OC is their interim
ESPN reports that and from the SF Examiner, Cincy’s OC, now interim at Cincy, might get the job at Buffalo.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
man, those kids at Buffalo are classy
From the AD to the players, every single one of them has been supportive of Coach Gill and has said flattering things about KU. I wish them nothing but the best, and I just might be cheering for them next season.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 14, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
um
I don’t think Coach really wants THAT level of commitment. We’re trying to win games, here.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 14, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously a class guy and a good fresh start for the team. From Nebraska, we’ll be cheering for him and KU every day except for one. :)
if you want...
you can cheer for him on that day too, we don’t mind.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
by Owen Kemp on Dec 14, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Very impressed with him during the presser
and I’m just really frickin pumped for next year, bring on recruiting news galore!
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2009 3:55 PM CST reply actions
could be in short supply this year...
if Gill manages to keep most of the current class intact, there will only be a handful of scholarships left to hand out. That would be the ideal scenario. If that happens, next year we’ll begin to see the true impact he can have on the recruiting trail.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
don't some juniors commit in the late spring and early summer?
Seems to me we had a few last year.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2009 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
well yes...
when I say this year I’m referring to this years class. We’ll start to see next years impact as early as the spring.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
that's what I'm pumped for!
yeah far off but it’s the next big thing in my mind
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
Anybody see that story about Leavitt?
Another Bill Snyder disciple that can’t keep his hands off his players. Interesting…
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 14, 2009 4:24 PM CST reply actions
the Leavitt deal...
appears much worse than Mangino…interesting that they were both together at K-State though. Must have sucked playing for that coaching group.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Link?
From out of the East rose the Son. Turner Gill was his name. And he went Westward. And he proclaimed: "It's a Great day to be a Jayhawk!"
And it was.
My opinion on the Turner Gill hire
I’ve been a Kansas fan and reader of this website for a long time, but never really felt like creating an account. Until now.
I don’t think I’ve ever been as annoyed with football as I am with this hiring. Turner Gill seems like a great guy, but choosing him was an absolute joke. If we’re including Kelly and Strong as candidates for the Kansas head coaching job, Gill wouldn’t even be in the top ten for best possible choices. I don’t blame Gill for taking the job (I’d do the same as him), but I do blame Perkins. Perkins put himself before the program for this hire, and I highly doubt that Perkins chose Gill because he was the best coaching prospect.
Everyone knew that Perkins wasn’t a Mangino fan and wanted him out. He tried stabbing Mangino in the back and getting him out without having to pay Mangino, but his plan backfired on him…a lot of the Kansas fans were still on Mangino’s side and wanted to see Perkins gone instead. The damage was done to Mangino and he had to leave, but Perkins got himself into serious trouble. Much of the fanbase had already turned on Perkins and if he screwed up with his choice for the next football coach, he could be gone as well.
Here’s where Turner Gill comes into play. After Perkins saw what trouble he got himself into, he knew that he had to hire Gill…it was the easiest way out of the mess he created. It was the perfect political play and, honestly…a brilliant move on Perkins’s part. If I wasn’t a Kansas fan, I’d probably like and respect Perkins for the move he pulled off. By hiring Gill, he bought himself a free pass. If Tuberville, Fulmer, or whoever else turned out bad for the football team, Perkins would likely lose his job (or at the least, be on the hot seat). With Gill, Perkins has everything working in his favor.
Gill is a friendly, well-spoken, upstanding, black man. While Mangino was mean and a hard-ass to his players (and also unwilling to kiss ass), Gill seems like the complete opposite. Even if Gill flops as a coach, Perkins still has the excuse of having to move his program in a different (friendlier) direction after the ‘horrors’ that Mangino unleashed upon Kansas football. And as much as the white journalists will refuse to acknowledge it, this move was still partially race-influenced. Funny enough, there were better black candidates such as Sumlin and Strong (if Strong was a candidate) that were available, but they didn’t qualify as well as Gill did. Gill has gotten the bigger headlines in the past and has also been the one who has been (most likely) discriminated against by Auburn, with them choosing the horrendous Chizik over him. By taking Gill, the majority white fanbase will (and many already have) jump with joy and swell with pride about how they have an AFRICAN AMERICAN head coach in a sport that is so unfair against AFRICAN AMERICAN head coaches and those same fans will be able to sleep better at night knowing that they have an AFRICAN AMERICAN head coach (plenty of Kansas fans have already endlessly recited the black head coaching statistics and attributed Gill’s blackness as a reason for why Kansas football will be much better. Attention…things don’t work that way. If they did, Tyrone Willingham’s team would be top twelve every year…not 0-12).
The thing is, Perkins is already looking like a saint for all this. Fans have gotten back on his side, news articles and ESPN are all praising him for this choice, all quick to forget what happened with him and Mangino (for as much hate as Jason Whitlock unfairly gets, he’s the only journalist who’s looking rationally at this and not blindly praising the hire). If Gill works out, Perkins looks like the best athletic director. If it doesn’t work out, Perkins still looks like a good person because he gave someone a chance who had endeared himself to the ESPN fans and was also (most likely) discriminated against in the past. And then Perkins gets to try again with a new coach in a couple years. Perkins secured his own job.
Truthfully, I want to see Kansas do well, but I don’t really see that happening in the near future. People were already getting down on Mangino, but I don’t see how Gill can be anything but a downgrade from Mangino. Sure, Gill had a hard time recruiting people to come to possibly the worst football program in FBS, but Mangino had a hard time recruiting people to come to possibly the worst football program in the BCS conferences and also had a better record. Buffalo doesn’t have a big recruiting base and isn’t attractive for college football, but neither is Kansas. You can insult Mangino for having one amazing year and a bunch of mediocre years in the second best conference, but Gill had one solid year and a bunch of awful years in the second worst conference.
I know I’m rambling and I don’t expect many Kansas fans (if any) to agree with my thoughts. Just felt like ranting and seeing what everyone else thinks of the situation.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 4:39 PM CST reply actions
That’s a really bad take.
I still don’t understand why Kansas fan thought they had a shot at Harbaugh or Kelly, especially Kelly.
Hang 'em!!!
by Screwface on Dec 14, 2009 4:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Mangino didn’t have trouble recruiting to possibly the worst football team in a BCS conference. Baylor, Iowa State, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, Minnesota, Washington State, and Virginia would beg to differ.
Hang 'em!!!
by Screwface on Dec 14, 2009 4:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Iowa State, Syracuse, Minnesota, Washington State, and Virginia would laugh at you for including them with Kansas. Washington State and Syracuse were actually good for a portion of the early 2000s. The others were decent. Baylor and Vandy were definitely around Kansas’s level of suck before Mangino got there, although I’d say that only Duke was clearly worse though.
Oh, and I didn’t think Kansas would have any shot at Kelly either. I just listed him to say that there were at least about ten others that were looking for a new coaching job that would probably be better than Gill.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
KU has a BCS win which none of those other schools have
And has averaged about 6 wins a year apart from its Orange Bowl run since 2004. There is no way in heck you can say that about any of those other schools save Minnesota. Iowa State, no. Syracuse…are you serious. Wazu???? The team that has what one win the last three years. Are you on drugs? (joking)
Lets not forget that our athletic department has more money than those schools (thus the KU coach is paid more), the benefit of the best basketball team in the country (and consistently in the top 5. I think this is a plus for football in terms of revenue, attention to your school, etc), brand new facilities, is in a better league than the other schools you mention.
I had some concerns with Gill too but you are blowing everything way out of proportion, and besides your argument makes no sense. KU is the bottom of the barrel compared to all other BCS schools yet the obviously should have hired a more reputable coach, despite? Your whole argument is one huge contradiction. And comparing Mangino and Gill is dumb. You really think Gill had the same resources Mangino had in their coaching years (big name school, big12 league, location, etc)? He didn’t.
Nope, my argument makes sense. I think your reading comprehension failed you though. I wasn’t talking about present results. In the early 2000s (pre-Mangino), Kansas WAS the worst BCS team (save Duke). Mangino’s lack of resources in Kansas as compared to his Big 12 competition was just as bad, if not worse, when compared to what Gill had with Buffalo and his MAC competition. So, now, why are Kansas fans so quick to praise Gill for turning around a dead program and then bash Mangino for doing the same thing? Gill has a bad year and the overwhelming response is ‘oh well, Buffalo sucks.’ Mangino does the same thing and ‘OH MY GOD WORST COACH EVER FIRE HIM FIRE HIM NOW!!!’ Those expectations are only there because Mangino was such a good coach. I think most Kansas fans have forgotten how truly awful Kansas was before Mangino got there. 5-7 would have been considered an amazing year back then.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 6:49 AM CST up reply actions
"In the early 2000s (pre-Mangino), Kansas WAS the worst BCS team (save Duke)."
I strongly agree with this.
The thing a lot of people continue to miss: not only did Coach Mangino lack resources, but he had to BATTLE his own athletic administration for those resources.
Since the dawn of time, KU football has had to play little neglected step child to King KU Basketball. Mangino said, screw that. He was an asshole about it. It’s one of the things that got him fired (his assholeness, not his willingness to fight for the football program).
Coach Gill seems to be an easy going guy. I’ll be curious to see if King KU Basketball takes advantage of that in the next few years (although most of those battles are done behind closed doors so we may see no evidence of anything but love).
From out of the East rose the Son. Turner Gill was his name. And he went Westward. And he proclaimed: "It's a Great day to be a Jayhawk!"
And it was.
Mark Mangino. American Hero.
Kansas Basketball. History’s Greatest Monster.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:45 AM CST up reply actions
So you think Roy Williams was supportive of KU football?
From out of the East rose the Son. Turner Gill was his name. And he went Westward. And he proclaimed: "It's a Great day to be a Jayhawk!"
And it was.
I definitely don’t think Roy was supportive, but don’t you think Bill is? One of his big things in upping the ante after his NC win was overall facility improvements including athlete housing, not just basketball.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
No, I think Self is the most supportive of all KU bball coaches
Self is smart enough to understand the current arms race that is college athletics and how important football revenue is to that arms race. But if he can take advantage of a situation, I wouldn’t put it past him.
But my point remains: back in the early 2000s (and before) Kansas WAS one of the worst BCS school football programs because not only was there a lack of tradition, facilities, talent, etc., but also because the de facto AD, Roy Williams, wanted 100% of the attention from the KUAC. Bobby Fred was nothing more than his puppet. Roy loved the Terry Allen hire because Allen wasn’t going to butt heads.
Enter Mangino. Not only did he have to fight for talent, for facilities, for fan support, etc. He had to fight the KUAC just to get phone messages from the secretary and to get Roy’s kids out of the weight room when it was his players’ scheduled time. And boy was Mangino an asshole about it. And we now know what that got him.
There simply is no substitute for experience.
definitely
and that’s why Mangino was such a great guy to bring our program out of the abyss, he’ll always be remembered for that. I just don’t think he was the guy to take it to the level after in hindsight.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 15, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
What does that mean, "100% of the attention"?
Did he demand they play basketball highlights at football games or something?
I used to hear these accusations all the time, and I still do. But no one actually can articulate it- after Roy gets all the money he wants, all the weight room time he wants, etc., why would he care how much is left over for the football team?
The idea that Roy single-handedly held back the development of the football program just seems like such a less likely scenario than, “our old AD pretty much sucked and couldn’t raise the money to get the football team its own stuff.” Maybe that’s just me.
And what could Self possibly want that he isn’t getting? Have you been to the Fieldhouse this year? It’s amazing! The only thing I’ve heard discussed that he hasn’t received yet is redoing Jayhawk Towers, but that would benefit the football team (and every other varsity sport), as well.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
I've heard this too and I truly believe it
Roy is a pompous and very selfish person. I believe that he had Dr. Frederick doing whatever he wished when he was here. I don’t blame Dr. Frederick and at all but I think that is the culture that Roy wanted and, in turn, no one bothered to try and change it.
No personal knowledge, just an opinion.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 15, 2009 7:20 PM CST up reply actions
Quite simply
It means he expected to be King of the Hill. No sharing of anything with anyone else. Period.
There simply is no substitute for experience.
You are assuming that Mangino was simply fired due to win-loss record this season
And that is not true. Mangino for years built up a terrible reputation with players and parents due to alleged abuse and harsh tactics and had lost control of the program, and this season’s extremely talented team going 1-7 in big12 was some proof that it wasn’t working and a change could benefit the program.
Mangino wasn’t fired because of one bad season in terms of wins and loses. Thats pretty obvious by now. Gill has been brought in to get more out of the players and “clean up” after Mangino’s “out of line tactics of motivation” and its really that simple.
Yeah, I don't think any rational person thought Kelly was a possibility.
Harbaugh has a few connections here and let it play out, got himself a raise. Not the first time a coach has used a program for that and it won’t be the last.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Enjoyed the rant and welcome.
Honestly, I’m with you in a lot of ways. I’m not thrilled by this hire but I’m not down in the mouth either. I was telling my brother that 3-4 weeks ago we would have been thrilled to pick up a sought-after and highly thought of Turner Gill.
I also agree that Perkins’ schemes tend to skew towards the Machiavellian and I don’t trust him any more than I can throw him. But also think about this. This man was voted Sports Executive of the year last year. By a wide margin. There wasn’t even another University AD in the top 35. The guy knows how to succeed. Granted he’s going to look out for numero uno, but I don’t think there’s any denying that the guy is good. As much as I think he’s a slimeball, I also tend to trust his judgement.
Me likey Skip Holtz
I completely agree. A couple weeks ago, I was expecting Kansas to hire the second coming of Dan Hawkins. Turner Gill would have been a pleasant surprise, but when so many other enticing names popped up, Gill didn’t look as good.
And no doubt about Perkins either. I hear nothing but great things about Perkins as an AD…but he still seems like a shady person who’s solely out for himself. But as a Kansas fan, 98% of the time, what’s best for himself is what’s best for the fans. Unfortunately, I think this is one of those times where his best isn’t the best for the fans.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
"I think this is one of those times where his best isn’t the best for the fans."
Where is your evidence for any of the accusations you’re making? Let me guess: his record.
Do you realize that more than half of Mangino’s wins came against non-BCS opponents? Do you realize that he now has a losing record against TEN other teams in the Big 12? Would you hire Mangino on that kind of record? If not, then why make long rants on the internet filled with wild speculation and accusations on what is, at worst, a lateral move in head coaching quality?
If Auburn and Nebraska seriously consider a guy to be their new head football coach, that’s not good enough for you?
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 14, 2009 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
I have no idea why you’re so vehemently opposed to choosing a coach based on if he can win. Call me crazy, but I thought that was what a coach was supposed to do: win.
And do you realize that Mangino has consistently had recruiting classes that ranked about 11th or so out of 12 in his conference? Doing what he did with those recruiting classes has been nothing short of a miracle. Say what you want, but with the exception of this year, Kansas has been far better than the 11th best team in the Big 12. He was finally starting to acquire some better recruits and he got the rug pulled out from under him.
Okay, and on the flip side…then why did we hire a guy Auburn turned down when we could have had someone they didn’t turn down?
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 6:54 AM CST up reply actions
Because Auburn is in back-assward Alabama.
They have to consider irrelevant things like the race of a coach’s wife in making their hires to appease their ignorant boosters. We are better than that.
And I think it’s funny that you would be pissing your pants with joy right now if we had hired Tuberville, when he is the very definition of “someone Auburn turned down.”
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Using this to support Mangino doesn't add up for me.
And do you realize that Mangino has consistently had recruiting classes that ranked about 11th or so out of 12 in his conference
So he really struggled in recruiting, we should have kept him?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Not quite
DP went on to say: “He was finally starting to acquire some better recruits”.
Our 2010 class ranked #1 in the Big 12 North before all this went down and we lost Walker. Mangino recruiting was getting better every year. Hard to argue othewise.
I don’t buy DP’s assertion that Mangino “consistently” had recruiting classes that ranked 11th or so. Early on, ok. But we’ve steadily moved on up since about 2005.
There simply is no substitute for experience.
As far as recruiting, I'd agree with you more.
Just pointing out the recruiting comment and how that can easily be part of letting a guy move on.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Yeah, it’s been better. It started about 11 and it’s gone up slowly, but the recruiting classes that have been much better were in the last two years, where they’d all be freshmen/redshirt freshmen in 2009…not nearly enough experience for them to make a big difference yet.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
correct...
2002 ranking 11/12
2003 ranking 7/12
2004 ranking 11/12
2005 ranking 10/12
2006 ranking 7/12
2007 ranking 9/12
2008 ranking 9/12 (lower because of pure numbers, only 20 in the class…good class though)
2009 ranking 5/12
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Why you gotta bring Hawk into this?
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 6:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Because it's fun?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
You used to be one of the good ones.
You’re dead to me, Warden.
(At least until basketball hits full tilt and game threads are back to how they were last season)
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
You should see me crying
sobbing
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
lol'd.
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Whoops…sorry. Worst head coach I could think of at the time.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
That's not any better q_q
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
And if i didn’t believe that Perkins was an intelligent guy, my rant would have just consisted of ‘What an effing moron.’
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
First off...welcome...
you need to come around more often. Whether I agree with you or not, you make some great points and a good argument.
I guess I’d contend your argument is based on some assumptions. I don’t believe Kelly or Strong were ever candidates or interested for one. As far as Harbaugh it appears he was likely using us to get an extension and make a little extra cheese while he waits for a bigger gig.
That leaves us with Sumlin, Holtz, Fulmer, Butch Jones and Gill as confirmed interviewees for the position. Tuberville appears to never have been a viable option and never interviewed. Of those remaining five, I’d venture a guess that Holtz and Fulmer are the only two that we’d both agree are “better hires”.
I would not have been for a Fulmer hire because that would have been short term in my mind. Fulmer is 59, how much longer does he coach. Stability needs to be here for Kansas to build a program and Fulmer doesn’t provide that. He is answering questions as to how much longer he coaches just a few years in.
Holtz is the one I think we could have had a shot at and I would have liked over Gill. Holtz is a more proven commodity than Gill and has done more at this level. Would everyone have been happy with it? Nope. Would Holtz have been able to smooth everything over as Gill has? Nope. So in that sense I agree with you completely. Lew made the hire that paints him and the Univeristy of Kansas in the best light possible. It saves face in a time where he was covered in egg.
What I’m not sure on, is how realistic a chance Lew had at making a FAR superior hire. With that in mind, I’m willing to let this play out before I pass final judgement on Gill. As far as Lew, I don’t think there are many Kansas fans who aren’t at least a little leery of the guy. If it pays off here though, he’ll have gone a long way in mending fences.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Oh man…I love Holtz (both of them). I wanted him, Tuberville, or Fulmer so bad that I was disappointed when news came out that Kansas got Harbaugh (who was my 4th choice). While I don’t think Kelly or Strong were going to Kansas either, I think there was a possibility for Harbaugh to come. I don’t think his main priority is Stanford, so I think it could have been possible to get him to move (even if this would have just been a temporary job for him). Nutt, on the other hand, was someone who clearly threw his name out just so he could try to get a raise.
Fulmer could have been a retirement risk, but who knows with college football. Paterno’s still around and Bowden was just finally forced out. But I think Tuberville and Fulmer would have been incredibly good coaches…no doubt about that. Holtz has proven himself at the lower levels and deserves a shot in a BCS conference, but we agree that he doesn’t fit into the same criteria that Gill does. Unfortunate enough, because I really think Holtz would have been a much better hire.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
Would Tuberville been that great of a hire? Afterall, Gene Chizik did something this year that he couldn’t do last year, with virtually a worse team.
Hang 'em!!!
by Screwface on Dec 14, 2009 10:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Meh, everyone deserves an off-year. I think Chizik’ll start to suck when Tuberville’s recruits leave.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 6:55 AM CST up reply actions
If those guys were such slam-dunks...
Why aren’t they getting hired anywhere else? Nobody is willing to talk to Tuberville right now. I don’t know about you, but I find that telling.
Sumlin, Harbaugh, and Nutt all used us to get raises from their schools. Fulmer is 59, and has a TERRIBLE record of bringing in bad-character recruits. There’s a website devoted to college football called Every Day Should Be Saturday, and they run something called the “Fullmer Cup,” where they track the number of arrests for each school in D-1 during the offseason. It is named in “honor” of Phil Fullmer. I don’t want to go back to the days of having a bunch of idiots and thugs representing my school.
So it comes down to Holtz versus Gill. And you seem dead-set against the possibility that Gill gave the better interview, or had better Texas recruiting ties, or had better assistants lined up, or had the better plan for the program. That’s fine to have that opinion. But to suggest that this is some kind of Affirmative Action hire or something is wrong, stupid, and has no place even being discussed by Jayhawk Nation.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 14, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Well said KG
Personally, I don’t buy all the insinuations wrt Mangino leaving either, but as mentioned above, most of that is speculation either way.
One of the things that is most telling to me is how excited Chris Harris is to play for someone like Coach Gill. Remember that Chris is one of the players that came out “in support” of Mangino, or at least that’s how it was labeled when you didn’t blast him or even just gave a no comment response.
People are saying be patient, and as a multi-decade Jayhawk (and Cub fan) there is a pathetic level of patience at this keyboard. I also realize that we lost a ton of fabulous experience in the 4 captains and Briscoe. All that being said, I think we finish in the neighborhood of ’09 expectations next year.
I think we have a great group of players coming back, but most importantly, “It’s so much nicer to have a players’ coach because you build trust in your coach and you want to go out there (on the field) and fight for him. It helps out a lot.” Personally, I’m envisioning a scene much like the ISU lockerroom after they beat NU this year (YouTube-able), where they have a gatorade shower celebration together, vs. the OB where Mangino had assitants break up the players celebration before he got dirtied by it. That was just before he called them all a bunch of mediocre athletes.
I think there will be a great increase in enthusiasm for KU FB next year, and for years to come.
About Tuberville…I’m not sure if he’s actually mentioned anything about wanting to join any other schools. Granted, I don’t follow the coaching of other teams, but I’ve only heard Tuberville say that he’s interested in Kansas.
Yeah, Fulmer’s definitely a problem with recruiting criminals. Like you, I’d hate for Kansas to turn into all thugs, but Fulmer’s still an excellent coach who got unfairly fired.
Gill can talk a better game, no doubt…I’d just want to base the next coach on…you know, coaching results. I’ve loved what Holtz has done at ECU and think he deserves the job much more. And ‘affirmative action’ is the rage button for you, eh? I’m sorry for logically thinking about the situation. Next time, I’ll just assume that everything my team does is automatically the best move ever. And I sincerely hope you don’t complain about racism if Gill gets fired (or in any other situation) because that would be wrong, stupid, etc.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 7:06 AM CST up reply actions
Who brought race up on this message board?
I didn’t. You did.
Here’s your logic in a nutshell: 20-30 20-30 20-30 20-30 20-30 20-30 20-30 LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU 20-30 20-30 20-30 20-30 ONLY HIRED CUZ HE’S BLACK 20-30 20-30 20-30.
Here’s my logic: Turner Gill tripled the winning percentage of Buffalo. No other coaching candidate could say that. Skip Holtz had to be demoted by his own father at South Carolina. Ouch. Turner Gill coached two Heisman winning quarterbacks. No other coaching candidate could say that. Turner Gill has brought in an OC that also has coached two Heisman winning quarterbacks. Could Skip Holtz do that?
I already said you’re free to believe that Holtz inherently had a better plan for KU Football because he’s had a decent record at a southeastern school with almost non-existent academic standards. Everyone at this site questions KU athletics all the time- that’s the point of a blog like this. But where is your evidence that race must be a factor here? Just because it “feels right in your gut” doesn’t mean it’s logical.
And thanks for going ahead and deciding for me how I’ll react if Gill gets fired. That saves me precious thinking time. And because I support a guy with a great recruiting record and glowing reviews from a coaching legend, the school and players he just left behind, and our current players, I MUST not be a free-thinker like you, right?
Oh, and by the way, I would never let someone that voluntarily calls themselves “DreamersProphecy” to hit my “rage button.”
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 8:10 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
coached 2 winning Heisman QBs?
Touchdown Tommy was runner-up in 1995 (Eddie George won).
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 15, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
Fixed
He coached possibly the greatest college football player of all time (3 time national championship game mvp) and a Heisman Trophy winner…
Hang 'em!!!
by Screwface on Dec 15, 2009 1:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
abso-frigging-lutely
I still have a VHS of the 1995 Nebraska-Florida game.
Tommie Frazier was a thing of beauty.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 15, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah I screwed that up
For some reason I had Tommie and Heupel winning Heismans. But they were both “only” All-American QBs.
Please accept my apology and correction.
And Frazier gets my vote for greatest college football player of all time. I still think he could have been a great pro QB- people forget that he had an absolute gun.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
blood clot problems
If he hadn’t had blood clot problems in his leg, he would have been been Michael Vick way before Michael Vick had his first dog-walking job in junior high.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 16, 2009 8:00 AM CST up reply actions
Who brought up race? I did. I wasn’t complaining that race was being talked about. I was just surprised that you were hypocritical enough to get enraged over what I said.
Look…I haven’t spent a lot of time reading the comments on this website, but I’ve picked up a few things. One…Slam likes Colorado (sorry about bringing up Hawkins). And two…you don’t like white people. I’ve seen a handful of times where you have done nothing but blame whites for anything and everything that happens wrong to a black person (including you being one of the first people to break the imaginary story of Mangino being a secret KKK member…not to mention the ‘back-assward’ white people who previously held Gill back just a couple mouse scrolls up). That’s fine…well, it’s very monotonous…but it’s fine. But it’s also incredibly hypocritical for you to bash me for suggesting that race played a factor when you have done it so many other times against whites. Are you suggesting that it’s impossible to be racist against whites and the only kind of discrimination in the world is against blacks? That’s pretty narrow-minded.
If Gill has been turned down numerous times and has a below-average record in a terrible conference, then of course I’m suspicious. Am I supposed to buy that Perkins gave Gill the job based on his infectious smile and winning attitude? He tripled the winning percentage of Buffalo??? Oh my God!!! Three wins a year is tripling the winning percentage for Buffalo. There are probably random people on this blog who could triple Buffalo’s winning percentage. Sure Gill’s had some good recruits in Nebraska, but I (and you) can’t be for certain how much of that recruiting was attributed to him…and none of his recruits in Buffalo are currently setting the world on fire. Like I said before, this seemed like a political play by Perkins. Even if Gill doesn’t match up nearly as well to the other candidates, he’s still the feel good story and people will stop being angry with Perkins over Mangino and start applauding him for being the one to give Gill a chance.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Real quick...
I don’t want to personally get into race or anything, but do completely agree with the fact that the Gill hire in general does smooth things over for a variety of reasons. Hiring a guy like Holtz would have looked good to some of the more educated Kansas football fans, but the casual Kansas football fan(those who really are just bball fans) would not have been as forgiving to Perkins. That point I do agree with you on.
The only thing I would still say isn’t a certainty is whether or not we actually had the opportunity to get a better option. Maybe Perkins did offer it to others and it was turned down. We’ll never really know that.
Knowing what I know I don’t necessarily think there is anything wrong with what Perkins did from the investigation to the hire. Mangino handled this thing in the media like a champ and because of it, opinion did start to turn on Perkins. However, I will stand behind the fact that if all was made public…there would be few left arguing if Perkins was wrong to get rid of him. Kansas football is better for having Mangino but the time was appropriate to move on.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
The only one coming off racially bias is you DP.
There are two black coaches in major D1 football. Blacks make up about 12 percent of the general population and a much larger percentage play D1 football. It really makes no sense that there are not more black coaches in college football, black people do have ability to coach just as well a white coach.
Stay in the suburbs and pretend you are not racially bias and also continue to pretend that Turner Gill can’t be as good of a head coach as your beloved Skip Holtz, who would have stayed no more than 5 years. From what I can tell your opinion seems deeply rooted in TG being a black coach, which makes you the one making this a racial issue. Although I do think TG being a brother (an actual one, not a Ron Prince type) can help us tremendously in recruiting young black kids.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
sigh This is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re the one that’s racially biased and not racially aware.
Your first paragraph is true, however I could say that white people make up a large percentage of the population and a much larger percentage of coaches in D1 football. Whites can play football just as well as blacks, so it does not make sense that there are not more whites playing college football.
See what I did there?
What would your response be? Whites are being held back (LOL)? Whites aren’t as talented as blacks (yep)? The situation in college football is what it is. You’re never going to please everybody. I’m not shaking my fist at the skies and cursing at the top of my lungs because blacks aren’t represented to their population percentage in coaching (like you are) or whites aren’t represented to their population percentage in playing (or…you know, Asians being anywhere in football). Some people are always going to be screwed over. So I don’t know why there are Kansas fans that are ignoring (and refuse to believe) that there were better candidates out there and instead, focus mainly on the fact that Gill is an AFRICAN AMERICAN head coach and applaud Kansas for ‘doing what’s right.’ There are people that truly thought Turner Gill was the best coach on merit, and that’s fine. But it’s annoying to see people solely using the Hubin-esque reasoning of ’he’s AFRICAN AMERICAN so that means instant success.’
And Hubin, it’s ironic that you ignore your own blind praise of Gill because he is black as not being racially biased. I have yet to get anything of substance about why Gill’s blackness will help him be a better coach and get better recruits. If a lot of blacks only wanted to play for other blacks, the few black head coaches that are in D1 would get such immense benefits that they would never lose (in football and basketball). Looking at the past black head coaches, you can’t find any head coaches that got significant (or anything even slightly noticeable) recruiting boosts because they were black. I know, I know, you’ll respond “Err…umm…they’re not…err…umm…they’re not true black people…Ron Prince sucks” or some other crap like that. But I mean, congratulations on pointing me out as being down on Gill because he’s black (when in reality, he’s not one of the better candidates), while ignoring that you’re high on him because he’s black.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
More whites don't play D1 football due to talent.
Compare the number white athletes from KU that go pro compared to black athletes then figure that blacks make up a smaller percentage of the US population.
There is no proof either way about whether or not him being black will help with recruiting, however, I do know that people relate better to people that are similar to them, hence you wanting a white coach instead of a black coach. When a coach asks a kid to move away from his home to go play football somewhere, it could be beneficial to have a coach that looks and used to play like them. I also believe that women can coach just as good as any man, the problem is a woman coach would have a hard time recruiting and coaching male players, because they are not the same.
I am very aware of race, because race is a factor that is seems instantly apparent and it is instantly apparent to me that you are a white male, I wouldn’t even need to see a picture to know that.
And as far as people bringing up the race thing, nobody is except you and I. You and I are the only ones that will even discuss any race issues.
I am not high on Gill because he is black, although I do think it is a bonus, I would have been high on Holtz, Harbaugh, Tuberville, (not Fulmer), Sumlin (with the bonus), all are a step up from Mangino’s abusive style.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
Okay…so more blacks are playing…they’re much more talented and better than whites. More whites are coaching…they’re holding back the blacks and blacks are just as good at coaching as them. Did I just summarize your entire argument? Sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
It’s amazing that you can say that I’m racially biased and that you’re aware of race after that (unless race awareness refers to how much whites fail at everything).
I will agree with you that people can relate better to others that are similar to them, HOWEVER you’re still leaving out a lot of important things. First off, like you said, there is no proof that blacks mainly want to play for other blacks. It doesn’t seem to stop Stoops, Brown, Tressel, Mayer, Saban, etc. from getting elite black recruits every year. Not to mention that logic didn’t seem to help out Willingham, Prince, Croom, etc. And why is it only the head coaching spot that matters when attracting blacks and not the assistant coaches, teammates, or people on campus? Also, you make no mention of anyone else on the football team. What about the whites, Pacific Islanders, Hispanics, and Asians? Those groups comprise about half of college football…what if they’d rather play for coaches of their own kind? Or are we just ignoring them because they have no talent?
Like I said before, it’s downright ridiculous and hypocritical for people (yes, there have been quite a few online, besides yourself) to talk about how Gill being black will help Kansas win games, while throwing a hissy fit if someone mentions that his image/race could have helped him get the job.
And for talking about the race issues…most people are afraid to even speak about things like that. Whether or not I agree with you (don’t worry, I strongly disagree), it’s actually good that there are others that are willing to talk about it.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think any race should be held back or misrepresented in their numbers.
Four and five star recruits have no choice but to go play for Stoops, Brown, Tressel, Mayer, Saban, etc. because people such as yourself believe that black coaches like Turner Gill have no place coaching at a program such as KU and if you don’t think Turner Gill belongs at KU, you certainly wouldn’t want to see someone like him coaching at OU or Florida.
In order to get more black coaches up to the level of a Stoops or Saban, you have to give the Turner Gill’s of the coaching world a chance at places like KU. What’s wrong with that? It’s not as if TG is just so obviously underqualified that he shouldn’t be in Lawrence.
The only one throwing a hissy fit is you, I would have been fine with a handful of the names being thrown around to coach at KU. Now this is looking back but, personally if I were the AD at ksu, I would have never hired Prince as a head coach, but I like the hire KU made here.
It’s all speculation until TG actually coaches some games, but I think college football is in need of a solid black head coach and I feel KU is due to become a powerhouse in the north, maybe things will come together maybe not, if Gill sucks after a couple years I will be the first one yelling to can his ass, afro-american or not.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
First off, if you’re putting words in my mouth like I said that black coaches have no place in coaching, then I’m going to refute your idiotic claim that white people have no place in athletics because they’re all slow, puny neanderthals who have only gotten their spot because of racist coaches and/or they attacked a more deserving black athlete and took his scholarship.
Four and five star recruits aren’t STUCK with those white head coaches. While there haven’t been many black head coaches, there certainly have been some. If black athletes felt so strongly about wanting to play for a black coach, you would have seen more top recruits choosing to play for those specific head coaches…and you would have seen major results because of it. The black head coaches so far haven’t gotten these amazing recruits you speak of, so it’s asinine to believe that Gill being black will give Kansas better recruits. And just to clarify (although you’ll probably continue to ignore it), I never said Gill wasn’t qualified for KU…he just wasn’t as qualified as several other candidates.
Feel free to call me out on my racism though, when you’re insulting Prince for him not meeting a specific ‘blackness quota’ you’ve set for him. I don’t think many blacks would take that too kindly.
And everything’s speculation until the games are played. But there would be nothing to talk about if we all sat on our hands and waited for them to be played. It’s more interesting to speak up about what we think. Regardless, we’re not going to really know how Gill is for two more years. Truthfully, I think next year’s going to be a down year no matter who’s coaching…as much as people were down on Reesing, Stuckey, Meier, Briscoe, and Sharp…that was A LOT of the team.
Also, I have a question for you (and KG if he comes back to this page). Now, I mentioned that Turner Gill was likely denied a coaching opportunity because of his race. I also mentioned that he was likely granted a coaching opportunity because of his image/race. Can you explain to me why one of my statements went completely ignored while the other was met with unbridled fury?
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
I haven't put any more words in your mouth than you have put in mine.
I never said white people have no role in sports, if you are good enough to play it doesn’t matter what color you are (however there are Morningstar’s and then there are Henry’s, partially kidding there are tons of great white athletes), just like if you can coach it shouldn’t matter what color you are. The fact that there are so few black head coaches is obviously due to a head coaching fraternity of almost all white head coaches (ever heard of a glass ceiling?).
If Ron Prince was blue with polka dots I still wouldn’t like his personality, which may have allowed him to fit in with the folks over in Manhattan for a few years, but didn’t help him at all with recruiting kids to the Flint Hills.
Maybe you’re right and there is no chance that a black coach could ever be as good as Carrol, Stoops, or Brown, but maybe there is a chance there could be a great black head coach at a major D1 school and maybe there is an even slimmer chance that he is coaching for KU. Who knows at this point? I don’t know who you thought KU was gonna get as head coach, but TG is damn near as good as it gets at this point. No matter who Perkins picked, it was going to be a gamble of some sort.
The reason why I don’t get too excited about TG being denied a job in the deep south is because it was the deep south, where people (both white and black) hold on to an archaic belief that races shouldn’t intermingle. Why am I excited that Perkins looked at the resumes and decided Turner was his man? Well that’s what it means to truly be a Jayhawker!
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
And I never said black coaches have no role in sports. I agree that it shouldn’t matter what color people are, but alas, it exists and will unfortunately never go away.
I also never said that there is no chance that a black coach could be as good as those you mentioned, but there has still been a decent amount of black coaches, and off the top of my head, I can’t think of one that produced GREAT results yet. I like what Shannon’s done so far and think he has great potential, but I wouldn’t put him into the ‘great’ category yet. So why are fans applauding themselves just because Kansas hired a black head coach and expect to get benefits solely because he’s black?
I just hate the double standard that is played up by much of the media and some fans. Look at things from the other side…should there be a stat that is consistently shown to us about how many white cornerbacks are in D1 football? No. Should there be people pleading for coaches to add more white cornerbacks? No. If Florida replaced Joe Haden with some random white cornerback, do you think fans would be applauding that they gave some white guy a chance to play cornerback and expect his whiteness to be a key factor in shutting down opponents? No. I think everyone would agree how ridiculous it would be if people did those things, so I don’t see why so many people do that when it comes to black head coaches. It makes whites look completely racist and inept and it makes blacks look like they need to be coddled through life.
I do believe that there have been coaches where race was a factor in being turned down. I also believe that there are coaches where race was a factor in being hired (I hope this wasn’t the case with Perkins and Gill) But in the long run, the best coaches will always get a chance somewhere. There’s 120 different D1 teams and not all of them have the exact same beliefs. If there was an amazing candidate, perhaps some wouldn’t want him due to some factor (be it race or whatever), but there will always be at least one team that would gladly take the coach (provided the prospective coach hasn’t murdered someone or done something along those lines…and even still, I’m sure there’s a Calipari-esque AD out there). I don’t pay close attention to the coaching scene, but are there any big name black coaches who should have gotten a D1 head coaching job but haven’t? Do those fans that are pleading for teams to hire more black coaches know any black coaches that are currently being prevented from getting a D1 head coaching job?
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 16, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly there are not very many coaches out there like Turner Gill.
So when Perkins had the opportunity to hire TG, based on his resume not his color, he hired him. I would guess that there are not many black coaches in college football because of lack of opportunity (not knowing the right people to get a chance) and/or education. If that is true than you cannot say that all of the best coaches are getting their fair shot at coaching BCS programs.
How come you don’t cry foul when a minority gets turned down for a coaching position, but then become upset when you feel someone got a job due to being a minority? Which there is absolutely no proof of.
We can go back and forth all day as to whether 20-30 with a MAC Championship is good enough to coach at KU, but Turner Gill’s color is not the ultimate reason for Perkin’s hiring him. But IMO his minority status will help us in recruiting better athletes to KU.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
Your second paragraph is a complete joke. If you actually read my first post, you would see that I pointed out an instance where a black may have gotten preferential treatment and one instance where a black may have gotten discriminated against. What I AM crying foul about is the blatant hypocrisy displayed by the people (i.e. you and KG) who truly believe that ‘if it’s white, it’s not right.’ When I want to go online and hear opinions about the Gill hiring, half of it is “we did a good thing, we need more AFRICAN AMERICAN head coaches in college football” and “Gill’s an AFRICAN AMERICAN so more people will want to play for him.” It’s idiotic and I’m sick of it.
You say “when a minority gets turned down for a coaching position”…as if it’s a proven fact. You say “when you feel someone got a job due to being a minority”…and you IMMEDIATELY follow it up by saying that there’s no proof. You repeatedly say that Gill’s minority status will help KU…but you still don’t know why. You guess that there aren’t many black coaches because of opportunity…yet you can’t name any legit black coaching candidates who are currently being held back (no, the 120 best possible coaches aren’t all head coaches right now, but in the long run they all will get a chance). And you’re insinuating that I’M the one being biased?
Perhaps because there are more blacks that make it into the NFL, they’re playing football while whites are working their way up the coaching ladder, giving whites a head start. Perhaps many blacks just don’t care about the coaching aspect of football. Perhaps whites have a better ability for coaching (I know you gasped when I said that). Yes, perhaps even racism. It could be anything. It’s just annoying and hypocritical when people immediately jump in line to yell “it’s definitely racism” when they wouldn’t dare to dream of saying that when the situation is flipped.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 17, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
Willingham was an extremely good recruiter.
Look at what Chuck Weis did with Willingham’s players. Willingham just couldn’t coach his way out of a wet paper bag.
Croom was more a victim of circumstance than anything, MissSt still hasn’t devoted itself to anything other than basketball.
I understand your argument.
I’m not trying to drive the race issue anymore than it already has, but… I believe that if there was a reason for more white coaches than black it could have to do with the fact that more black athletes rely on their natural ability and more white athletes focus on the intricacies of the sport to make them better.
Why are Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Aaron Rogers, and Peyton Manning better quarterbacks than Michael Vick? He’s certainly the best athlete in the group.
Why is Wes Welker the best receiver in New England? He’s literally half as talented and half the size of Randy Moss.
I’m not saying racial bias has nothing to do with the lack of black coaches in football, but I think bias is not the only reason this problem exists.
Hang 'em!!!
by Screwface on Dec 15, 2009 9:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I have nothing more to say except: I completely agree with everything you said (well, maybe not the Croom part…I’m not too familiar about what’s going on at Miss. State)
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Did you listen to Gill's press conference yesterday?
If so, what did you think? Press conference, only. Not your thoughts about Lew should have kept Mangino or Turner’s record at Buffalo, just thoughts on him at the presser.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I’ve only seen the cliff notes…haven’t even read the full article at the top of this page yet :( Is the video online or is the presser just typed up?
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure 810whb.com has it online.
I’m just asking you to take a minute and listen to him. Then let me know what you think.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I just think you're arguments
make too many assumptions still.
There are so many factors we don’t know and can’t know yet. I respect that you are strong on your opinion but for me, it’s so hard to have that strong of an opinion about it all when there is so much left to be determined. Gill hasn’t even been able to coach a game for us yet and you are already saying it’s a horrible hire. What if he goes undefeated in non-con next year? What if he doesn’t?
by I need more Esteban on Dec 15, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
I haven’t said it’s a horrible hire…I just feel strongly that he wasn’t one of the best candidates.
Tuberville – 13-0 and should have had a national championship…continued being a great coach at Auburn.
Fulmer – Huge legacy at Tennessee until he got thrown out for one bad year.
Holtz – Has made ECU into a consistent good team, young, big name, with a lot of potential
Gill – Had one good season at Buffalo, looks friendly, cool name
I mean…honestly, as I said before, I would have been fine with him had the other, bigger names not come out as real possibilities for head coach. But as it is, I feel that Kansas left a lot behind with the other coaches. If he does well, great, but if he doesn’t, while the diehard fans will be complaining about Gill nonstop, I’ll have gotten it all out of my system and probably resort to a simple * facepalm *
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
only person out of those that excites me on that list as much as Gill
is Holtz. And that is simply because he is a younger coach who hasn’t gotten the chance to be something special yet. Don’t know why, but that is what I wanted.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 15, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
Have you picked up in the short time on the site
That I am awesome and should have been hired at KU’s coach based on my NCAA football and fantasy turnarounds? If so your opinions on here will start to hold more merit,
Okay…can you do better than 20-30 as head coach?
jk jk
My fantasy team sucked this year, however I will challenge your NCAA football greatness. I just went 14-0 with a national championship with the 2009 Jayhawks. Beat that!
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
I've won seven national titles in a row
This past year averaged 78 points a game, gave up 2.6 points a game, and had three players in the final heisman vote (although not one won it which is such BS effing video game).
I’ve recruited and developed all amercans all over the field, and my brother who plays madden exports draft classes from my ncaa seasons and I have also coached 8 pro bowl nfl players.
Not sure if in REAL (lolz) coaching I could beat 20-30 with the mess Gill took over at Buffalo though. I’m pretty sure my flag football team would have given them a pretty serious run for their money when he first took over a team that had won what, one game in two years (in the MAC!)
including you being one of the first people to break the imaginary story of Mangino being a secret KKK member
I’m not even going to dignify this with a response. I’m done with you.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
Did I miss something here?
I read that comment and was like WTF…
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Let's just say my Troll-dar is starting to go off.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously, you took off with the whole ‘Mangino is a racist’ conspiracy when there was no evidence to it.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting take
I agree with some of it. Perkins has rolled the dice with this hire. He’s taken on more risk with hiring Gill than he would of with a Tuberville hire. No doubt there.
But the flaw in your analysis is this: Perkins is gone in two years (retiring) whether or not Gill succeeds or fails. So no way did Perkins do this for Perkins job security. He might have done it for the Perkins legacy, but not job security.
From out of the East rose the Son. Turner Gill was his name. And he went Westward. And he proclaimed: "It's a Great day to be a Jayhawk!"
And it was.
I knew Perkins was pretty old, but I didn’t know about him retiring soon. Ignore the part I said about him getting to pick a new coach in a couple years then. Like you said, this is most likely a legacy pick. If Tuberville or Fulmer are good (which they most likely would be), they might only stay for a couple years before retiring or moving on. I could easily see someone like Holtz going to a better school with some success (like Notre Dame) as well. Gill, on the other hand, is probably locked into Kansas as long as he has good results. Although I don’t believe Gill is as good as the others, he could still be someone who could stick around for the next 20 years, while the others couldn’t. Not to mention, if Tuberville or Fulmer are successful, no duh, they’re legendary coaches…they’re supposed to be. If Gill is successful, Perkins retires as a hero, being the only person ballsy enough to give the man who was discriminated against a chance.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
Hell of an assertion, Rivet
Got a source on that retirement plan?
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 14, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
Just what I've heard.
It’s been pretty openly discussed. The guy will be at “official” retirement age in three months.
From out of the East rose the Son. Turner Gill was his name. And he went Westward. And he proclaimed: "It's a Great day to be a Jayhawk!"
And it was.
Can't do much worse than 1-7 in the conference, can he?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
0-8
And 5-7 in the Big 12 is still >>>> than 5-7 in the MAC
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 14, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
Except they weren't 5-7 in the Big 12.
They were 1-7.
Buffalo won more conference games than Kansas did. Either way, Mangino cooked his own tail. Gill’s here now and I’m excited.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I’d still take (or be less pissed about) 1-7 against great/good competition over 3-5 against awful competition. Duke and Iowa State were still legit wins as below-average as they were. Buffalo’s wins this year mostly came against the worst teams in college football.
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
competition is relative though isn’t it?
Sure Buffalo doesn’t play as tough a schedule but they don’t have the horses either.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
You should check out their non-conference schedule, Denver
Buffalo’s is FAR more difficult than ours.
In 2006, they played:
- Auburn
- Boston College
at #10 Wisconsin
at Temple
In 2007, it was:
at #16 Rutgers
at #12 Penn State
Baylor
Syracuse
In 2008, they eased up a bit and went:
at Pitt
UTEP
at #5 Mizzou
Army
How many ranked non-conference opponents did we play during the Mangino era? There was South Florida and… I can’t think of any others.
Can we all agree that a decent coach should be able to be competitive in their conference, while non-conference games can’t really be compared given the power structure of D-1?
If we can, then Gill’s 44% winning percentage is a hell of a lot more impressive than Mangino’s 25% for his first four years on the job.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
weird, editing got screwed up
Auburn was #3 nationally; BC was #17
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 7:50 PM CST up reply actions
I was...
referring more to the conference schedule myself. 1-7 vs. 3-5 (conference records)
basically I’m like you, I think a coach’s conference record is likely his best indication of what he’s doing with a program because that is where for the most part the jimmys and joes should be most similar.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Also worth noting...
Buffalo was in every game this year and did so after losing their running back to a season ending injury. The guy rushed for 1300 yards in their MAC Championship run.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
We're only supposed to consider that type of information if it supports Mangino,
not Turner Gill.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
OK here goes
If we’re including Kelly and Strong as candidates for the Kansas head coaching job, Gill wouldn’t even be in the top ten for best possible choices.
Well for one thing we really don’t know who the candidates were and who was even interested in the job.
Why would he not be in the top 10 candidates? He seems to be a very highly respected, rising coach. Just wondering if you have some inside info or something about the search and searches across college football.
Here’s where Turner Gill comes into play. After Perkins saw what trouble he got himself into, he knew that he had to hire Gill…it was the easiest way out of the mess he created. .
I think Perkins has probably looked at Gill as someone he’s liked and possibly aspired to hire for years. If you think this was some quick rapid judgement without thought put into it, you didn’t see that Lew Perkins was voted, Time Magazines Executive of the year, after our Orange Bowl and National Championships. He beat out the likes of Danny Ainge and was one of the only college execs in the running. Now success always brings awards like this, but he has been in charge of our deparment in some of the best athletic times in our school’s history. I think he deserves a little more credit.
Even if Gill flops as a coach, Perkins still has the excuse of having to move his program in a different (friendlier) direction after the ‘horrors’ that Mangino unleashed upon Kansas football.
I would be shocked if Lew ever looked at any other scenario than Gill working out. A plan for 3-5 years from now already in place? No, Lew is confident with his pick, and he wouldn’t be doing his job if he wasn’t.
The thing is, Perkins is already looking like a saint for all this. Fans have gotten back on his side, news articles and ESPN are all praising him for this choice, all quick to forget what happened with him and Mangino
Because people are ready to move on and Turner is a good looking, young, and very charismatic coach. That is what we like at KU. We want that image because that is a good image. Yes, I’ve moved on from what happened with Mangino. I definitely haven’t forgotten it and won’t until Gill gets a chance to prove himself viable.
but I don’t see how Gill can be anything but a downgrade from Mangino. Buffalo doesn’t have a big recruiting base and isn’t attractive for college football, but neither is Kansas. You can insult Mangino for having one amazing year and a bunch of mediocre years in the second best conference, but Gill had one solid year and a bunch of awful years in the second worst conference.
You don’t think Kansas is a huge upgrade in the eyes of recruits? Mac vs. Big 12? Playing on national TV possibly every game.? Texas kids only having to cross 2 states to go to school and play football as opposed to like 8 to Buffalo. Did I mention Big 12 Football?!?
C’mon man, judging a guys record on this is not even worth it. We don’t know if he will be good, no one does but you can look at how he carries himself and the great things people who know him say. You can look at all the things Buffalo people are saying about him (remember he is leaving them, kinda like Glen Mason did us.) And you can look at the fact that he reallly really wants to be here.
You and many others mention Tubberville, Fulmer, Harbaugh, and a few others. I don’t want some guy that used to coach at Tennessee, or was really good years ago and has had a few different jobs. I want a young guy who could be a the next big thing, a legend, someone who could take us to new heights. Turner Gill has that look to me. Will it work? Hell if I know, but I’m going to be along for the ride to see if it does.
I’ve been a Kansas fan and reader of this website for a long time, but never really felt like creating an account. Until now.
Glad you did, always welcome new and different opinions and even though I disagree with you, it was still interesting stuff to think about.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2009 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Not being top ten is just for emphasis. He’s not that low, but I would have taken a bunch of others over him.
Definitely agree about Perkins. He’s a smart dude…shady, though.
And I agree with the image as well. Perkins is looking for a good image (which I think he has placed more importance on than coaching)…someone who can make everyone forget about what happened with Mangino. he wants to go in the opposite direction.
Kansas is an upgrade and much more appealing when compared to Buffalo, don’t get me wrong. But, Kansas has to play against teams that have even more advantages. If Buffalo can only get 2 star recruits, they’re not as good, but the MAC is made up of a lot of 2 star recruits. Kansas gets mostly 3 star recruits, which is better…but they’re not in better shape, because a lot of their competition gets 4 star recruits or even 5 stars (in the case of Oklahoma and Texas).
For me, I value a person’s record and past success more than anything else. I mean sure, Fulmer or Tuberville could bust, but I’d trust their past success more than someone who hasn’t really done anything to prove himself yet. Gill talks a good game and he’ll make a good face for the program, but his results haven’t been nearly as impressive as Fulmer or Tuberville (or even Holtz).
Thanks to you (and everyone else) for the welcome. I hope we can all continue to agree to disagree (or agree to agree) without things breaking down into a flame war (like most other sites).
by DreamersProphecy on Dec 15, 2009 7:20 AM CST up reply actions
It's absolutely a good thing to have different perspectives on here...
otherwise we’d just have one long thread of…
I like Turner Gill…(reply)me too…(reply)oh definitely…(reply)yep.
As you say though, and I hope others on here will agree, we need to avoid it turning into personal attacks and be respectful of everyone’s opinion.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Flame wars are heavily discouraged 'round hurr.
While we can all disagree on different topics, we’re all fans of Kansas in some capacity. That’s why we’re here. No reason going off and eating your own.
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
*except KC
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Who doesn't even show up here anymore, it seems.
Went the way of RC, eh?
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Apparently.
I was really hoping for a write-up of SlowDance’s experience from the Xavier vs Cincy game. No way he’d miss that, right?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
That's what I thought
but a girlfriend and college seem to have stolen him.
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Dec 15, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I've been asleep since 9 this morning
What did I miss?
All nighter was a bad idea….but in all seriousness I feel as gitty as a school girl about this hire. He really seems like a PR dream come true…loved the letter from the Buffalo player..It’s a far cry from what we’ve heard coming from Cincinatti players since Kelly left (but then again Buffalo’s season is over and Cincy is about to play its biggest game in school history)….but it does show that he takes care of his players and is easy to get along with…the Antimangino? I’m especially excited to see what he can do recruiting-wise mainly with the 4 star players in Kansas this season (McCay, Randle, Robinson, and keeping Geneo…I’ve given up on the dream of Bell)….Another name I’d like to see us go after from Hutch is FB Josh Smith…The staff he’s putting together here is excellent and both Long and Torbush have Big XII ties which is another plus with recruiting…Odd rumor: Frank Solich to be part of the staff…I don’t buy it one bit but I guess we’ll see
I heard a good chunk of the presser on the radio after practice tonight,
came away very impressed. I can see him selling a lot of moms and dads, always a good thing. Who knows how it will work out, but it got off to great start.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
looks like he has the reputation as a recruiter…has spent a stint at Kansas in the past and a lot of time in the Big 10 as well. I assume this is in reference to the Footballscoop headline about him as our new RB coach? I don’t know anything more than you if that’s the case. I’ll check with someone tomorrow who should know.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I'm going into Illinois tomorrow for a job interview
I’ll keep my eyes and ears open, I’ll be real close to Champaign. Just for you ;) hey oh
I joined this blog because I am a fan of Turner Gill.
Obviously, his focus on recruiting is working already.
nice
schools you follow/cheer for?
by I need more Esteban on Dec 14, 2009 11:25 PM CST up reply actions
You know what? I'm sick of the Lew Perkins hate.
Whitlock was right- ever since LP put in that Priority Seating plan for basketball, old-time fans have been bitter towards the man, since they were “entitled” to sit in the front. And they’ve looked for every excuse possible to snipe at the man since then.
Look. A player came to Perkins with an accusation of physical abuse from his coach. In response, Perkins started an investigation, as was clearly set up in Mangino’s contract. Then, the media, talk radio, and blogs went absolutely apeshit with rumors and accusations. But how is that Perkins’ fault???
Is Perkins really supposed to be able to prevent former players that now live all over the country from speaking their mind to the media? Was he supposed to come out and throw his support behind Mangino when he had no idea what might turn up in the investigation?
I have no idea how Lew Perkins feels about Mark Mangino personally. But the whole storyline about, “oh, LP wanted HIS guy for the position” is idiotic. It’s idiotic because Perkins is a good business man, and good businessmen follow the M.O.B. principle- Money Over Bullsh*t. If Perkins found out through the investigation that Mangino could keep building a program that will be successful for years to come, he wouldn’t have fired the guy, because that would have made his department money. Hell, Perkins so desperately wanted “his guy” that he gave Mangino a huge raise and extension after the Orange Bowl season. Oh wait, that makes absolutely no sense.
Instead, what he found was a team that had completely quit on its coach. A coach that created a toxic atmosphere for players, coaches, and other athletic department personnel. And there was no way that that kind of environment could sustain success. Period.
During the so-called “witch hunt,” did Perkins make any accusations about Mangino? Did anyone connected with KU Athletics? No. And yet people want to blame Mangino’s failings as a head coach (and let there be no doubt, if your former players are calling you out in the media, and you are getting almost no support from anyone in response, you have failed as a coach) on Perkins.
College athletics is a big time business, folks. You can hate that all you want, but that ship sailed a loooooong time ago. Back in 2007, no one seemed to have a problem with that- not when PERKINS, not Mangino, got us into the Orange Bowl. Not when PERKINS, not Mangino, secured the funding for new facilities to become a more attractive destination for recruits. Not when PERKINS, not Mangino, was able to sell unprecedented numbers of season tickets to a program that had no history of success or any real recent success before that year.
This whole thing reminds me of the blatant hypocrisy surrounding Xavier Henry. All over the internet, KU “fans” swore up and down that they would NEVER support the kid after all the turmoil in his recruiting process. They said he’d NEVER be a “true Jayhawk,” and that they wish we only recruited players that would come for 4 years and graduate with honors. Then the kid drops 31 on La Salle, and suddenly you don’t hear a peep out of anyone. It’s pathetic, and it’s weak.
If you hate the big-time business aspect of big-time sports, I suggest you start following your local NAIA program. But don’t come running back to support Lew and KU when we make the final four, or win the Big 12 North in football.
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 14, 2009 11:37 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
Right on again KG
Well, except for, “Was he supposed to come out and throw his support behind Mangino when he had no idea what might turn up in the investigation?”
Lew knew full well what was going to come up in the investigation. He had been dealing with chunks of it for years.
The beauty of the OB win/contract extension was it the perfect reason for rewriting Mangino’s contract to include the clause about being fired with cause. Perkins, and others in the athletic department, already knew there was cause to fire Mangino. He also knew that the general public/fanbase didn’t realize there was cause to fire him, and that the current buisness model was still working. So he let the model run until it was almost poisoned to death. Suddenly, the OB success becomes Mangino’s own undoing.
Lew is a very good buisnessman. Another example is the number of times KU was on national TV last year. I think it was every game. Even the 1-AA game against UNC was on Versus if I remember correctly. If you live close enough that you are able to go to the games or see them on local TV, maybe that doesn’t mean much. When you live far away, like a lot of top recruits do, it means that you get to see KU on TV. It means that KU was getting national publicity, when mizzoo, NU, … fans were having to buy it, or maybe get nothing at all. That’s good buisness – well up to the point when the stick was stuck in the wheels, and most of the team did a face plant over the handlebars.
Also, if you look around at the top programs with top coaches, most of them didn’t recruit top coaches, the program made them a top coach.
by dagger108 on Dec 15, 2009 5:11 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Nice description of the season
up to the point when the stick was stuck in the wheels, and most of the team did a face plant over the handlebars.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Here Here, dagger!
Great point about adding the “for cause” section to his extension. I hadn’t even thought about that.
I wonder how much loyalty Mangino would have earned if we had gone to the Cotton Bowl instead in 2007 and potentially lost to Arkansas and McFadden. In that scenario, we drop out of the Top Ten, and MM never gets his one win over a top opponent. Would fans still feel like we’re “entitled” to a retread coach that’s been fired somewhere else?
"Here are our top priorities: recruit, beat Missouri, recruit, win the North, recruit, win the Big 12, and in most cases if you win the Big 12 then you're playing for a National Championship. And then we're going to recruit."
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Dec 15, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions
definitely agree with about everything
College athletics is a big time business and you either embrace it or you fall behind. Look at the bowl games, it’s all about money.
You think we deserved to go to the Orange Bowl over Missouri in 2007? Umm you’re crazy if you do. Did it help that we rule and they drool? Yes, but the bigger factor was Lew and what he probably did to get us that bid, guaruntee a good alotment of tickets sold, our fans traveling better, and just a general better level of awesomeness.
by I need more Esteban on Dec 15, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Funny about our assistants
A friend just pointed this out to me:
Chuck Long was the OC for OU when they beat A&M 77-0. Carl Torbush was the DC for Texas A&M when they lost 77-0 to OU.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Torbush is a good choice. I just found this really funny.
I was actually working on my...
“Get to Know” segment for the new staff and came across that. It will still be included.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Wonder if the two ever get into an argument in practice or in closed dores
If Chuck starts flashing some sevens around :)
Hey DC
What happened to that beat down in fantasy I was getting?
Fighting 5.7s finish with a perfect division record of 4-0. Denver, can we keep the divisions the same next year? 4 guaranteed wins a year is a huge stepping stone for me
hahahaha
I can take it when I’m out-matched. Well played, sir.
And Denver, I’d be happy to have the same division again. ESPECIALLY if there are no keepers.
KUGrad, watch your back.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 15, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
you're both screwed...
the commissioner of the league DOES NOT miss the playoffs two years in a row. Even if it takes an act of god(that would be me since I’m the commissioner) I will make the playoffs : )
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Are you the same “God” who cursed my team with injuries this week? I swear…
Insanity is just a state of mind.
no unfortunately...
I don’t dictate injuries. Otherwise I would have none.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
hey, if it works for labba
Why not you?
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 15, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
All in all our division had to be one of the best
I got hot and won 5 games in a row after being at 4-4 which was the difference (a lot of shrewd moves helped like picking up scrubs like Brian Leonard and Manginoing them into playing hard and producing).
But we all had winning records, signed on regularily, and talked a lot of shit throughout. What other division can boast these three things? Throw in our division is the best looking in terms of owners, and its no contest.
(flameshield up)
second to none...second to none
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Don't forget...
Denver had to deal with all of the ramifications of his mascot being fired before the end of the NFL season.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 16, 2009 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
almost forgot about that...
it’d be like if they moved a team named the New Orleans Jazz to a random place like Utah all the sudden.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
or
The Minnesota Lakers going somewhere crazy where there are no lakes, like Southern California.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Dec 16, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
can you imagine something so ridiculous?
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Man,
this post has been hyjacked in so many different ways.
yet, KC still isn’t here….
Me likey Skip Holtz
maybe he took the SlowDance route
and got himself a lady?
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
is that where he's been?
I mean that can’t be the only reason, you are still allowed to blog while you have a g/f. You probably try to hide it from her, but you can still do it!
by I need more Esteban on Dec 16, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions

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