Coaching Philosophy
Coaching philosophy's range from "the players coach" to the "dictator" approach. The ultimate goal regardless is to get a group of men to bond, play as a team and reach their ultimate potential as individuals. This ideally leads to success on the field and success later in life.
In 2001 Kansas made the switch from a fun loving "players coach" in Terry Allen. Allen is known to pretty much let the players call the shots, do what they pleased and the results speak for themselves. Were they bonded as a unit? I can't say they were. Did they play as a team? Absolutely not. Did they reach their ultimate potential on the field and as individuals? I can't speak to players individual lives but I have to think that missteps in the program were clearly keeping Kansas from reaching it's potential regardless of whether that is as an Orange bowl winner or a 6-6 Fort Worth Bowl. Neither of those were happening with Allen.
Moving on, Mark Mangino is brought in. Early players say he was intense, very hard on the team but it was understood that this was an effort to weed out the players that weren't serious about playing winning football.
"There is only one sort of discipline, perfect discipline."
- Patton
We've all seen the movies. Full Metal Jacket comes to mind first. Break a man down to the lowest common denominator and then rebuild him the way you want him. I can see where this might trickle into a coaching situation. Not saying I agree or disagree with it but it clearly has some merit.
So under the assumption that this is the philosophy of coach Mangino, where did he go wrong? He clearly broke down and built up a winner. However now, with things on a slide there seems to be a building army of dissent among his former players and one would assume some currently playing feel the same.
Somewhere along the way coach Mangino made the breakdown personal. It was no longer the over the top motivational style of a drill seargent, but a personal attack on individuals, their families and life situations. These were no longer actions meant to drive and create the proper behavior. In the context of a football program it was uncalled for.
Secondly, where is the build up. You've broken a person, a group of men and now you must rebuild them into a cohesive, confident, motivated group. This needs to happen top to bottom, not just at the top. Clearly at times we've found 22 guys on offense and defense motivated to play. It can't be ignored though that special teams and depth have always been an issue. In any team situation you are only as strong as the weakest link.
"Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory."
- Patton
Are you truly challenging a kid when you tell him he's going to "become and alcoholic like his father" or "I'll send you back to get shot with your homies." Draw your own conclusions. I'll leave you with one last thought for the day.
"Always do everything you ask of those you command."
- Once again, Patton
You can absolutely COMMAND respect as a division one coach and you are entitled to that from your players and staff. However, when you apparently make no effort to show that in return at any point in time it becomes a problem.
Obviously there are those that have spoken on behalf of the man, some who are pretty well respected. Nick Reid, Jon Cornish, Brandon McAnderson. By the same token not all of those could even completely agree with his methods. Add that to the fact that the list is growing in terms of players coming forward and this thing has gotten ugly.
It's sad to see things come to this but it's hard to believe that it isn't just a matter of time at this point.
This doesn't change a thing for me in terms of my thought regarding Jayhawk football however. I'm a believer in the players we have on the field, I'm a believer in the University as a whole. If this situation end the way it looks as though it might, there is one person who is responsible not an entire program. Rock Chalk and on to Austin.
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83 comments
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Comments
To Me...
The best coaches are the ones that don’t fit neatly into either the “Player’s Coach” or “Hardass” categories. The best ones are the ones that know how to use a variety of methods to reach a variety of players.
Coach Self talked about this recently somewhere. He said that within a minute of talking to a kid, he knows if that kid needs to be encouraged or pushed to reach his full potential.
From the comments we’ve seen, Mangino doesn’t appear to have that sense. His methods do seem to work with some guys, as quotes from Meier and McAnderson have shown. But it doesn’t work on everyone, and he ends up trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Furthermore, the accusations of having a “permanent dog house” and being “vindictive” really bother me. Not because I feel sad for the poor widdle foobaw players, but because that kind of behavior can hold the organization back. If our most talented players are sitting on the bench the rest of their careers for a mistake or two, we are missing out on the benefits.
Think about how much better we could have been last year if we still had Anthony Collins. If Mangino’s schtick really did push him away into the NFL a year early, then we suffered as a result of his inflexibility as a leader. And that sucks.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 19, 2009 12:49 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
agree...
there’s a balance that has to be achieved. I’d venture so far to say you can even skew to the hardass side more in football. Bill Snyder is known as a pretty hard nose coach…but he clearly get’s the best out of people at the same time.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
It's really a matter of respect
If you show respect to others, then that is exactly what will earn back. Mangino’s methods, although successful for a period of time, seem to be coming to a conclusion, supposedly today or by the weekend, we’ll see. At least Mangino has more than enough money to get the help he needs if he so chooses.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
by Hubin311 on Nov 19, 2009 1:41 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I honestly don't think he believes he's done anything wrong.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
by Owen Kemp on Nov 19, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he has personal issues,he's angry and disappointed in himself
but it manifest itself like this because he doesnt know any other way to deal with it
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What's he disappointed in himself about?
The National Championship ring on his right ring finger?
The decades long marriage to his wife?
Two great kids?
One cute grandkid?
The National Coach of the Year plaques on the wall?
The National Assistant Coach of the Year plaque on the wall?
All the lives he saved working as an EMT on the Pennsylvania Turnpike?
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
by Rivethead on Nov 19, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely.
I think Bestofthewest is taking Jason Whitlock’s recent columns a little too seriously.
by hunter s. royal on Nov 19, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
Havent read a whitlock column in at least 4 months
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
good for you
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Thanks i've found i get a better read on RCT and RockM than the star
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
I think I'd have to agree
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
That he hasnt got the kansas football program where he wants it to be
Sheesh is Denverjhawk the only civil person that comments on this site.I commented on rock m that all the people hoping he gets canned should be careful of what they wish for they just might get it.
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If he's truly given it his best shot,
which I believe he has, then he can’t be disappointed in himself. The results, maybe, but not himself and his effort.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
Suppose all of this stuff is true for arguments sake
It makes you wonder if its all mangino or somebody he worked under was that way and had mostly good results.My guess if thats the case would be stoops
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
I think Stoops back to Bill Snyder are very hard nosed...
tough coaches. I think coach Mangino just takes it to another level due to a pretty clear history of anger management problems. It’s not unusual for coaches to yell at players, what’s unusual is the confrontational personal nature of what Mangino appears to do on a regular basis.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
That assumes he can control his weight
BIG assumption. Many obese people are obese due to a medical condition that’s beyond their control.
Not having ever seen Mangino’s medical records……I can’t say one way or the other.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
I'm thinking the fat jokes and everything...
have had a negative effect on his life and that leads to most of the problems
And that is the problem
If he was able to realize that behavior is inappropriate, he probably wouldn’t be in the hot seat right now, preferably with a winning team.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
by Hubin311 on Nov 19, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know that he actually has done anything wrong
Context and consistency are difficult. There’s very little talked about when it comes to a pattern of behavior on the part of the offended players.
Was Arist Wright a pattern jokester, a loafer, were there ongoing issues off the field that precipitated the alleged Mangino confrontation? Raymond Brown, Raimond Pendleton, Dakota Lewis, etc. Were there patterns of behavior there?
All of the sudden Jocque Crawford has new-found creditability? Seriously? A kid who did not qualify academically leaving high school, then leaves the program amid cloudy circumstances, and his interpretation holds serious merit?
Someone watch this and tell me what he does wrong here. In my interpretation, he did not do a goddamn thing wrong except chastise a kid for being a hot dog during a team effort. Is it over the top? Yes. Was it on the money? Yes. Did we see this when Talib showboated in the Orange Bowl? No, I don’t recall a simialr reaction, as Grad pointed out yesterday.
Consistency is a bitch, and your followers will crucify you for double standards. But context is pretty damn important, and these surfacing “incidents”, whether factual or perceived, try to make apples-to-apples comparisons to paint Mangino as a bully, a tyrant, a man who has no regard for some of his players. IMO, bottom line is that the university gives the man a canvas and gives him the flexibility to create the scene. If he breaks eggs to make his omelets, well, creation is messy.
by JayhawkTom on Nov 19, 2009 2:34 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
definitely is another side to those stories...
but their are some very upstanding guys that played solid minutes that have also made comments.
Working on an interview with a former player myself. He’s pretty clearly on the fence with what should happen but definitely consistent in describing the pattern just as everyone else has.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I really don't know what to think anymore
This morning I was pissed and siding with Mangino. At this point, I just don’t think I can now. The damage is done, and for our program’s sake, I don’t see how Lew can’t fire him. This will assuredly hurt us in recruitment somewhere and maybe badly if we don’t act fast. If he stays, opposing schools will always use this stuff against us in recruiting battles. I’m mostly worried right now about keeping the top players we have coming in next year, i.e., Keeston Terry, Geneo Grissom and quite a few others. We’ve already got a pretty good class coming in. This sucks.
All in all, KU football can survive because of the KU alums and fans. Yes, a good coach will be very important, but if the fanbase holds strong, it can be a big part of sustaining our success and improvement as a program.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 4:58 PM CST reply actions
Right now, I’d have to believe more harm would come if he stays rather than if he goes. Assistants do the bulk of recruiting, the majority of the relationship building. We’ll have turnover once we see where those guys settle in the equation without a doubt, but I’m just not sold on the fact that anyone came here for Mangino alone.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
definitely
and that is pretty much what I was saying, if he stays, schools are going to pounce in and use all this against us which I’m sure some have already done. If Keeston Terry and Geneo Grissom aren’t getting calls today or tomorrow I would be shocked.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be shocked...
If those calls didn’t come on Monday or Tuesday.
Regardless of what the situation is, right now, the change needs to happen very, very fast.
While I’m sure Perkins is salivating at the idea of landing a BIG name (Patterson maybe or Peterson), it is in the best interests of the program to name a new HC in the next few days, not months. If Mangino is fired soon (let’s say before Monday, for argument’s sake), Warriner or Bowen can take over as interim coach, reassure the recruits, and a top-level assistant coach from outside the program can be named before the season ends.
Waiting until after bowl season is nuts, and Perkins knows it. Naming a new (permanent) HC is the only way we have any shot at continuity (with recruits, players not transferring, etc.)
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
naming an interim right now will be essential
naming a successor can’t happen until after regular season’s are complete because bowl season is the first time coaches can be talked to by other programs. I think this is how it goes in college but not positive.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
believe you are correct...
we would likely be able to go out and get someone come early December, plenty of time to circle the wagons in recruiting. Getting rid of Mangino now does the same thing that getting rid of Terry Allen early did…that’s give us time to put feelers out and be ready to act when we can and act quickly.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
hmm...Pelini?
There’s something about this with Pelini. If I remember correctly, Dr. Osborne filed paperwork as the coach after the regular season so he could talk to recruits but “named” Pelini as the coach. Pelini split time between Nebraska and LSU before LSU’s national championship game, then went back to coach in the game.
So technically, yes, but I think that an interim coach would allow the same scenario to play out. While the new HC could not technically speak to recruits (because he wouldn’t technically be the coach yet, since he couldn’t coach two teams at the same time and he had obligations to his previous team), the interim HC and the coordinators could certainly sing the new HC’s praises.
Or maybe I opened the bottle of cabernet a little too early today. It’s nice to be the boss and decide when happy hour starts. :)
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
Osborne
assisted with recruiting, but in doing so had to pass a NCAA recruiting test before he could perform those duties. Wasn’t anything to do with coaching, but assisting in recruiting.
Go Big Red Nebraska!
Our Cobs Are Bigger Than Yours!
Corn Nation!
Twitter!
cornnation@gmail.com
by Jon Johnston on Nov 19, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions
I heard on the radio this afternoon
that other schools were pecking around kansas recruits already.Take it for what its worth,i dont know that it means much really,or it could be really bad for kansas next year recruiting wise,it’s anybodys guess at this point
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure we'll lose some guys...that happens with any change...
just depends who comes in as far as how well the pieces are able to be picked up.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Grrreat
might have happened earlier but I see on front page of yahoo sports section: “Former Kansas Players: Mangino abusive”.
It’s hit the AP, magical
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 5:19 PM CST reply actions
MSN also has it on front page
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
More players stepping forward in support...
Derek Fine, Mark Simmons both through radio interviews. It’s an interesting situation right now. You have highly successful and respected guys from the program saying they have the utmost respect for the guy.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Someone
is going. Whether it’s Mangino or your athletic director. At this point, there’s no turning back, is there?
Go Big Red Nebraska!
Our Cobs Are Bigger Than Yours!
Corn Nation!
Twitter!
cornnation@gmail.com
by Jon Johnston on Nov 19, 2009 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
doesn't really seem like it
the way it was handled, there is no way for him to stick around it seems
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
and Sweet Lew ain't going anywhere.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
If I were a kansas fan I think I would be as pissed at Lew as I would be at mangino
He opened this jumbo can of worms,whether he had a choice or not, he hasnt said a word since.
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think anyone...
can be happy with how this was handled. The thing that makes this sad is that everytime Mangino get’s in front of a mic or camera right now he ends up coming off as a determined, confident and very sharp guy. Those speaking against him aren’t necessarily doing the same.
If this is a PR war there have been a lot of swings in momentum in this one.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Basketball tonight can't come soon enough.
Need a distraction.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
810 sports just said 92.7 the fan in salinas
said their sources are telling them there will be a presser tomorrow and Mangino will be let go
Labbadabba will be thrilled to hear that.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Well Soren Petro is usually competent.
The rest are fairly typical sports talk guys.
by hunter s. royal on Nov 19, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
True, I lumped Petro in unwittingly - my bad
I listen to and enjoy Petro. I also think Leabo is generally solid. KK, however, is the south end of a north bound brontosaurus. A true muckraking asshat.
by JayhawkTom on Nov 19, 2009 7:01 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I would agree normally but...
ksu keitzman wasnt there today
by Bestofthewest on Nov 19, 2009 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
…shit.
There just went any ability to convince a future coach that Lew would never ever stab a coach in the back at the drop of a hat.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 19, 2009 7:20 PM CST up reply actions
obviously
this could get bloodier, although what credibility does that article have?
Who is this John Taylor dude that wrote it?
Go Big Red Nebraska!
Our Cobs Are Bigger Than Yours!
Corn Nation!
Twitter!
cornnation@gmail.com
by Jon Johnston on Nov 19, 2009 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
kind of what I was thinking...
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
yeah true
but I still don’t like the way it sounded
I just want this to be over
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
I think Lew's really screwed the pooch
in the way this was handled…he could have held off until after next season, but was probably scared to b/c we would probably be good next year and would therefore not have enough ammo…i have to think Lew’s regretting the way this has gone down…he BETTER hit a fucking home run with a new hire.
"He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it felt...he lives vicariously...through himself- He is the most interesting man in the world"
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 19, 2009 9:19 PM CST reply actions
This post makes a lot of sense to me....from Jayhawk Slant msg boards
“Have you considered that Lew’s hand was forced in this issue by those that approached the AD with complaints. Once that happens you must investigate or there could be greater issues in the future. Investigate and document. The documentation may be in MM favor and head off things in the future. The dragging of our Great University Name through the mud has been the media and internet boards, not Lew Perkins. He has issued only one public statement and it was wording carefully. We will never know all of the “facts” of this case. Lew can’t tell you and anyone that does outside a court of law is breaking confidentiality laws. This is a tough time for an AD. I know as I have been through this myself in Lew’s shoes, not at the university level but at a lower level and it is tough not to be able to tell people all of the facts and I grant you that pisses off even your best friends." – wd40
Idk if its ok to post something from there…
Well except for that fact that Mangino has a laser sighted on Lew anytime someone asks him a question.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
wouldn’t you if your boss was investigating you for something that you thought (correctly or not) was unfounded? especially if you have a self-importance/ego as big as Mangino apparently does.
Blank
I agree with you for the most part.
I’m just pointing out that Mangino has not hesitated to point in that direction and it makes Lew look like a snake in the grass.
Personally, I think Mangino may have taken his shots a little too publicly. Although he is fighting for his job and a program that he must care deeply about.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Make up your minds people!
Sheesh some of you say “yeah given what has surfaced he needs to go” then two minutes later “this is BS, its football he didn’t do anything wrong.”
What does everyone really think? I’m seeing more flipflops then a boardwalk.
You should see...
the slant message boards….It is way worse…I really think he’s gone no matter what…if we keep him it’ll have a negative effect on recruiting now
Yeah I've been over there a little bit
Just seems like we are all critical of the “media” and we follow it blindly. Players come out and say things negative we go “fire him we have to” then players say he is fair no different from your average coach we all yell “this is BS! He is coaching! Its football.” I dunno, not trying to be a dick to anyone so please don’t be upset RCT peeps.
At this point I think you’re right though, he is on his way out (heard rumors he is in a buyout negotiation possibly? Can anyone confirm this??) so lets just move forward and not dwell on the aspects.
it's the emotional rollercoaster we are on...
at the moment. Everytime I’ve watched or listen to coach Mangino speak since this thing has come to light I find myself thinking “damn this guy is sharp and a solid football coach.” Ten minutes later I see a reminder that there is a lot of hatred toward this man among players and it seems best to move on. It’s a tough deal.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I just don't get
The hate towards Perkins….only thing he’s said is that there’s an investigation underway and everyone assumes he’s out to get Mangino and just trying to make up excuses so he can fire Mangino…I mean good Lord…talk about jumping to conclusions….
I have a jump to conclusions mat!
But yeah I agree. I think it stems from 2006 rumors that Lew wanted “his guy” in there. If Perkins was out to get the big man so much I think he may have axed him then.
I think Lew could have framed the whole thing better, but maybe he is being honest. He is hearing a lot of shit and couldn’t possibly give the vote of confidence so he is just doing what he is supposed to do as AD – find out whats going on.
Well, let's see...
Lew came out with his public comment less than an hour before Magino’s weekly press conference. As such, Mangino was blind sided and had to discuss this issue during the PR and not the game against Texas.
Then there is the report from NBC.com that Lew used “text blasting” to call the players meeting on Monday night. Text blasting is a method used by Mangino to communicate with players. As such, many of the players thought that Mangino had called the meeting. They had no idea that it was Lew until they got there. Mangino had no idea the meeting was held until after the fact.
On the surface, it looks like a lot of backstabbing by the AD. Now, can you imagine what a prospective coach must be thinking about coming to work for the guy?
My personal opinion is that madam chancellor needs to clean house. And that means firing Lew and Mark (assuming the internal investigation finds that the forcing players to play injured accusation is valid).
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
Yeah, NBC is all over Lew on this one.
Really, it seems like just NBC and HipHop are on Lew. All other media outlets seem to be focusing on Mangino. I would take the few that are starting to look at Lew as a good sign for MM. Early on, he was dead. Now people are starting to look through the smoke and figuring out this fire might be arson.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
There is no way we can fire Lew
Despite how poorly this was handled IMO (and I’m kind of in the middle, I think he could have handled it a lot better but at the same time you have to do your job if people are presenting you these things).
What Lew has done for the athletic department since he got here though, I don’t think he’ll be able to be canned. Budget increased a lot, football gotten competitive (even if he didn’t have much to do with it), facilities, fundraising, etc.
So...
all quiet? Mangino heading to Austin?
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
sounds like he'll be in Austin...
I guess Lew better hope they don’t win this thing or this could become even stickier.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Do you have any thoughts on the NBC side of things?
(pointing the finger towards Lew)?
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Not sure...I think they are looking for something...
not saying Lew has handled this the best but I’m also not sure he had much choice.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
the choice he had was whether or not to try and shield Mangino
but it appears from the outside as if he did the opposite (or at least subverted Mangino’s ability to prepare and defend himself).
Blank
Totally agree with this.
Whether or not he had a choice we may never find out. Looks awfully shady though.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
It does look shady....and I think that's the bigger damage
Even if Bernadette forced Lew to go public before Lew really wanted to, now Lew has to do an extra special job of convincing the next coach that it was “special circumstances” and that he’d “never do that to you”.
Something tells me that Strong/Sumlin/Venebles/Holtz are going to be really skeptical.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke

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