What do we Really Know???
by Owen Kemp on Nov 18, 2009 9:20 AM CST
in Football
361 comments
Yesterday Lew Perkins issued a statement making it known that Head Football Coach Mark Mangino is under investigation due to a player complaint. Cue the rumor mill. The newspapers, message boards, blog, radio and television stations quickly begin to churn out rumors of choking, punching, an all out mutiny of a man who clearly has no ethical standards and is finally getting what he deserves. From Manhattan to Kansas City to Columbia and even in Lawrence Kansas the dirt was already being shoveled on the grave of the Mangino era of Kansas football.
Now I'm not sure where this ends up but I thought it would be nice to recap what we do know and what we don't know at this point. In the end it may be determined that Mangino and Kansas need to part ways, but at the same time the awkward timing and release of the information has certainly led to a lot of misinformation and piling in on from all sides. So here it goes...
What we know...
- The Kansas athletic department is investigating the Kansas program and coach Mangino based on potentially inappropriate conduct brought to the departments attention by a player.
- It is being reported that this stems from an incident where Coach Mangino allegedly poked senior linebacker Arist Wright in the chest.
- Mangino does have a history of hot tempered flare ups ranging from the newly reported incident with the KU parking department to the occurrence at his sons high school football game.
- There was a meeting with Coach Mangino and Lew Perkins.
- There was a meeting with Lew Perkins and the Kansas Coaching staff.
- There have been one on one player meetings as well.
- Practice was business as usual yesterday, Mangino on the practice field.
- Speaking to several players they say they are focused on Texas and trying to avoid get involved in all the hype right now.
- Coach Mangino has done a tremendous job of turning the Kansas program into a competitive one. Things aren't panning out the way anyone hoped this season but as a whole the man has clearly been successful in his career whether that be during his time at Kansas State, Oklahoma or here at Kansas.
- Chris Harris...""I have a pretty good relationship with (Mangino)," Harris said. "I’ve been playing since I got here, and I haven’t done anything wrong, so my relationship with him has been pretty good. If you do something wrong, you’re going to get in the dog house, and I’ve pretty much kept my way out of doing wrong."
- Brandon McAnderson..."I knew immediately," said McAnderson, "They told me, ‘If you want to get coddled, don’t go to Kansas. If you want to play for a guy that’s a disciplinarian, then that’s what you’re getting yourself into.’"
- Todd Reesing, asked whether he felt Mangino had the support of Perkins, "I think Lew is doing what he has to do in the position he has."
- "He’s always been very stern in his resolve," Reesing said. "... The way he’s approached football is the way a lot of people approach it. He takes the same approach that coaches all across the nation do."
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Dexton Fields also said he thought the rumors that were now surfacing were legitimate and had been occurring since he came to Kansas in 2004.
"It’s been a long time that that stuff has been happening and it had to surface," Fields said. "Of all the talent that KU has there, it had to be some other reason that KU isn’t producing out on the field. It’s been long overdue."
- "I knew it was a matter of time before somebody reported it or said something, because it’s been happening since I got there and I’m sure before then," Marcus Herford said. "I’m surprised actually that it took this long honestly."
What we DON'T know...
- IF...Coach Mangino choked, punched or truly physically abused any player.(poking in the chest doesn't count in most peoples book when you are on a division one football team.)
- IF...Lew Perkins and Mark Mangino have an ongoing tense relationship.
- IF...Lew Perkins has simply been waiting for his opportunity to fire the big man and make "his own hire."
- IF...The only reason this is coming to light is the 5 game losing streak.
- IF...An all out mutiny is being arranged by players, parents and assistant coaches because the environment around Kansas football is so bad it's intolerable. (Quick question, why is everyone still there then?)
- IF...Coach Mangino's days are fading as the head coach of Kansas football.
- IF...Coach Mangino is a the epitome of a bad person, some out there would like to assume this without knowing the man. I don't know the man either so I'll withhold judgment. Just like I'll withhold judgment of other teams coaches. I don't have to like them as an opponent but I'll show respect where it's due.
- IF...The alleged former players interviewed are in fact departed junior college flops in Vernon Brooks and one Jocques Crawford.
- Lastly we don't know if others brought forward additional allegations beyond those of Arist Wright.
Again I don't know where this thing ends up. It could be determined that coach Mangino poked Wright in the chest and he get's reprimanded, told to tone it down and still coaches the Jayhawks.
It could be determined that coach Mangino has a larger pattern of some kind of abuse and he is asked to leave or forced to leave as the Kansas football coach.
Coach Mangino may see Lew's timing and disclosure as a slap in the face and decide to leave on his own accord.
Hell who knows. All I do know is that for the moment Coach Mangino is the football coach at the University of Kansas. For now, until some factual information comes to light I think I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. However, if indeed Mark Mangino is guilty of some sort of overall pattern of abuse and misconduct then he should be gone. I'm not saying the man is perfect, and based on past patterns it certainly warrants looking into if something is brought to the attention of the athletic department. If however this is a simple poke in the chest, I'll be moving on. Alas, today is a new day...let the rumor mill commence.
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Why would former players come out to say such things against their previous head coach?
Maybe they just didn’t get enough playing time when they were here.
Mangino will never be able to top his Orange Bowl year, in fact I doubt he will ever sniff another BCS bowl. So we can expect 5 to maybe 9 wins per season as long as HCMM is here. Mangino has done a great job getting us out of the basement, but he has already reached his peak. It would have been great if Mangino was as good of a coach as Stoops or Snyder, but he just isn’t.
How difficult will it be to recruit players to a team where the head coach has been under investigation for abuse of his players? And if there is any evidence that he has been really abusing players or throwing around racial slurs, he needs to go sooner rather than later.
Why would KU put this out there with two games left in the season, unless something serious happened?
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
Seems like there's two main reasons this would go so public:
1. Lew really is just looking for an excuse to get rid of Mangino. 2. There really is something worse happening that we don’t know about.
If he gets fired for poking someone in the chest, I’ll pretty much lose any respect I had for Lew Perkins. If he just doesn’t get along with Mangino or think he’s the right coach for KU, then just fire him and don’t try to pawn it off on some bullsh*t made-up controversy.
If it is just a poke it the chest
I don’t think anybody will be very happy about how it has been handled.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
to you former players comment above...
there are former players who have come out in support and also obviously some against.
Nick Reid went on the radio and said he had ZERO complaints about his time at Kansas.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Players are saying different things.
I wouldn’t think that Mangino would have the stamina to abuse every player on the team. So of course some players are going to say he never abused them. Hopefully this doens’t turn into a racial thing, where some of the black players feel they have been abused and all the white players say Mangino is great.
Reesing seems to be just towing the line in order to get the team focused on these last two games instead of choosing sides.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
even if he hasn't done anything
you can’t keep him now. Recruiting would go in the tank. Even if it’s just that he yells a lot, elite HS athletes today are a bunch of babies and won’t want that.
http://twinkietalk.com
http://thecollegehockeyblog.com
I don't think Kansas makes any secret of the fact that...
coming to KU means you will work your butt off and it’s tough…see McAnderson’s quote. We aren’t in the mix for truly elite talent. We are in the mix for guys that are overlooked by Texas and OU. They have the opportunity to go somewhere and work hard to prove people wrong. Kansas gives that opportunity.
I’m sure it will have an impact but I think we’d be fine.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Hard work is something that any player should expect playing college sports.
Abuse shouldn’t be tolerated at any time and allegations of abuse certainly shouldn’t be taken lightly.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
I imagine that this, in large part, is a culmination of many instances just like that one
that fall into a gray area where some might see it as being a disciplinarian when the young player deserved it, but others might think that such a fierce berating of a young player in front of teammates, fans, family was a bit over the top.
Blank
I couldn't find that video on YouTube last night
but if memory serves me correct, it was pretty deserved.
http://twinkietalk.com
http://thecollegehockeyblog.com
Mangino's reaction? Not deserved at all
I saw it in person. Pendleton ran back a punt for a touchdown and on the way in dived into the endzone.
a) This was the first year BCS football established the no high-stepping, diving, etc into the endzone or it would be a play. The previous years that would have been ok.
b) I didn’t see him ripping Talib for drawing the same penalty with his return in the Orange Bowl.
c) You can go over and tell the kid not to “hot dog” but the way he did it was over the top and unnecessary.
I posted it fairly early in the game thread from last night.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I agree that abuse is over the line...
I’m saying that if it’s determined this was just a demanding coach and not true abuse then I don’t think it would affect the recruiting. If it’s abuse…agree, it’s a big blow.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I think all this still stems from this season
Mangino was quoted as saying that he believes this investigation wouldn’t be going on if the team was 5-1 in the league instead of 1-5. I think in the case of the past, players were fed up (as evident by some former big-time players coming out and saying these things) but when you are in the midst of an Orange Bowl run (Henry, Fields, McAnderson, etc) its harder to speak out and go to Lew than when you are losing every week, fed up, etc.
Overall frustration is prompting players and families to finally speak out. When you are winning, people and ADs put up with it. When you start losing, it becomes less tolerable. This parallels the rein of every successful disciplinarian college coach, Knight being a prime example. Indiana dealt with his shit for years, let it go with the wins. The 5-6 seasons or so before Knight was fired Indiana didn’t do anything in the tourny or field elite teams, and bam. An incident + history + present struggles = tootalu.
At this point
I say this is all a bunch of BS. I have a feeling that this is all about a bunch of little incidents similar to Raimond Pendleton and the parking thing. Now are these things that make him an abrasive person that not many want to deal with on a day to day basis? Probably. But he’s a f’ing football coach. Like BMac said, he’s no different than about half of football coaches in America. I know Bmac personally, he is one of the most level headed guys out there and he’ll tell it like it is. That is how it is
I find it interesting that the quotes we are getting are all from guys who played a good amount as underclassman and then as seniors didn’t live up to expectations or play as much: Arist Wright, Marcus Herford, and Dexton Fields. It may come out that there is more to this than what is reported but to me right now, it looks like what I’ve seen in athletics many times before: Players get disgruntled when they don’t get what they think they deserve in their final seasons of play. Hell, it even happened to me a little in my playing days, I ended up sucking it up and realizing that in the end, it was up to me and not the coach. I just want to hear something come out from someone other than a player who was disappointing. I especially don’t want to hear anything from parents. These are guys that are almost adults, we don’t need their mommies and daddy’s telling us what’s wrong with the big bad man yelling at their little boy.
I know that more stuff will possibly come out about this and then this statement might be irrelevant. But right now I am mad at Lew Perkins. Why has this been handled this way? No matter what the outcome, this is going to have a negative affect on the football program. This will always be mentioned and could even hurt recruiting in some ways. WTF? It actually angers me. What Mangino has done here is quickly being forgotten because of a disappointing season. We’re KU! We are not Texas, OU, Nebraska, or even K-State! Yeah I said it, K-State had a decade of good football and were considered one of the better programs in the midwest. Mangino has gotten us to the level where we could be where they were. Building this program is probably about 1/3rd of the way to where it needs to be? Less than half is my guess.
I’m starting to ramble because I’m frustrated. I just think that this could’ve been handled so much differently and that we are in a losing situation no matter how this ends up.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
we don’t need their mommies and daddy’s telling us what’s wrong with the big bad man yelling at their little boy.
I’m a dad, so do I want someone physically mishandling my children? Most generally, no. Do I want someone to help forge their talents and efforts in to character and results? You bet.
Competition means hard work. Hard work means being pushed, by a mentor or coach, teammates, or themselves, to their physical, mental, and emotional boundaries.
I’m not dismissing any allegations, but “abuse” is a slippery slope. I’m with you Este, I’m frustrated mostly due to the timing and the overwhleming amount of speculation that has and will continue to occur.
and I'm not a dad so I can't quite understand
that part of it fully.
But I am a son who knows the age when I didn’t want to be coddled or helped along anymore.
You’re right, though, it all comes down to what “abuse” constitutes. I think that it’s going to be pretty hard for them to come out with anything I would consider “abuse”. If it is degrading or belittleing (sp?) then I will change my stance for sure.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
I think football players generally understand that playing D1 football means hard work.
Or they wouldn’t have made to the level they are at, which is alot further than most of us on here have made it.
Why is it more important to support the big guy than to support the players that wanted to come to this University to work hard and play football? I don’t think these players are looking for an easy way out, by alienated themselves, maybe they actually were abused by someone in a higher position of power.
Perkins should have timed this better, but maybe he wants to get a jump start on a coaching search, because he knows what is still to come.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
I think football players generally understand that playing D1 football means hard work. Or they wouldn’t have made to the level they are at, which is alot further than most of us on here have made it.
Generally, I agree with you on that. But there are always exceptions. I’ve seen a lot of guys get pretty far based purely on athleticism and god-given talent.
Once again, the word abuse is thrown around and I think that word is getting used way too much without anyone really knowing what “abuse” constitutes.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Bravo, bravo BRAVO!!!
“But right now I am mad at Lew Perkins. Why has this been handled this way? No matter what the outcome, this is going to have a negative affect on the football program. This will always be mentioned and could even hurt recruiting in some ways. WTF? It actually angers me”
That would be me too. Denver we do know one other thing: the timing of Lew’s statements (right before Mangino’s weekly press conference) was complete bs….throwing the coach under the bus, blindsided.
Sawin' wood
Couldn't agree more.
I especially don’t want to hear anything from parents. These are guys that are almost adults, we don’t need their mommies and daddy’s telling us what’s wrong with the big bad man yelling at their little boy.
Being in education, trust me. I deal with the best 20 kids on the face of the earth every single year. “My child would NEVER do that”.
Not to mention, that these parents CAN’T even call the school and get a grade report for Junior. Junior must get that report himself and then send it to mommy and daddy so he can blame the professor for being unfair (leaving out the fact that he hasn’t missed a Wednesday or Thursday happy hour all semester). Professor’s don’t have to answer to mommy and daddy, why should the coach?
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
yeah I think anyone in education
or who is close to someone in education can understand the varying degrees of parents and how crazy they can be.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Todd McShay
on Sportscenter just said that he thinks Mangino is gone, but KU will be hard pressed to find someone who can do the job he did.
I don’t think someone else could have turn us around like Mangino did. Going forward who knows how anyone would do. I just want this resolved quickly with whatever outcome. Even if its firing Mangino (which I don’t agree with) at least do it and move on. This whole “investigation” and interviews and etc is bullshit, IMHO. Lew, for being one of the elite (or “elite,” based on your viewpoint) ADs in the country, is really dropping the ball on this one.
damnit
either way this crap is not good.
I don’t want to be irrelevant in football again. These last 3 seasons have been awesome, even this year being disappointed, at least everyone cared!
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
If we were winning of course none of this would be brought up.
If we were winning the players would be preparing to finish out a solid season and get into a major bowl. Just because it is being brought up now, during a losing season, doesn’t make the allegations irrelevant.
How do we know Perkins can’t bring someone in that will take our program to an even higher level than Mangino has brought us? We have five wins (with a tough schedule) in a season that we were supposed to be decent.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
"How do we know Perkins can’t bring someone in that will take our program to an even higher level than Mangino has brought us?"
Lew Perkins just publicly blindsided our current coach. That’s how we know.
What decent coach out there is going to look at that and go: “oooh….sign me up for some of that!!”?
Sawin' wood
What recruit is going to say, oooh an abusive coach sign me up for some of that!!
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
exactly
that’s why it was very irresponsible for Perkins to handle it this way, because no matter what happens now, it could be negative in recruiting, even if it is just a few players who still hold a grudge about not playing that much.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe Perkins has more of clue as to what actually took place and as to what is to come.
I don’t think Perkins is an idiot, but maybe he is. And at this point how do we know that this is just a grudge? My guess is that Perkins knows a little more about whether or not this is just a grudge between players and coaches.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
I really think Perkins saw this as a way to get rid of Mangino.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I agree with you at this point
Lew knows much more than anyone out there reporting or talking about it. And I’ve always been a backer of Lew and have loved what he’s done for our athletics. I’m just saying, I think no matter how this ends up, we will look back at it and say it wasn’t handled the right way. Fire or no fire.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
....hmmmm???
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I think finding a new coach is what Lew is really thinking though
If he fires Mangino (which I think he wants to do for a few reasons that have been brought up, losing, possibly wants his guy, etc) he can attribute firing Mangino to the allegations. Then he tells coaches “I fired him for his actions.”
To potential coaches, it looks better that Mangino was fired due to these allegations rather than no matter what you did, if you have one bad season we will oust you. That is at least what Lew’s standpoint is IMO, and I don’t really agree with it to be honest witchyous
Just because it is being brought up now, during a losing season, doesn’t make the allegations irrelevant.
Of course not, but I want to know if it would be brought up during a winning season? Because if it wouldn’t, then it’s not relevant and it’s BS.
How do we know Perkins can’t bring someone in that will take our program to an even higher level than Mangino has brought us?
We don’t. But we do know what we’re getting with Mangino, we don’t know what we’re getting with the unknown out there.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
12 wins
8 wins
1st time in SCHOOL HISTORY with back to back bowl wins.
That’s with over 100 years of football. Hmmmm
How quickly people forget how bad it was.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Hey, I remember sitting on the hill when you could actually see the field from there.
People would give away tickets to MU and NU games just to get fans in the stadium. I have seen what Mangino has done and I have seen him peak out, it happens sometimes, the memories were great. We are hanging our hat on an OB win, in a year that we had a down schedule. We didn’t even win the North title that year. If Mizzou would have been invited to the OB (which could have happened) we wouldn’t even have that talking point. Keep Mangino and watch the cornheads and the putty tats blow right by us, let alone we will never catch the likes of Texas or Oklahoma. Wake up people Mangino was good, not great.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
I'm constantly amazed at how people think this program has peaked.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
by Warden11 on Nov 18, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
12 wins, 8 wins, and while history waits, 5 wins.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
ok so what will happen next year?
You don’t think we will improve or what?
I just don’t get the constant reminder of how many games we’ve won this year?
Yes it’s been very disappointing but that happens. You think OU is ok with their win-loss record this year? No, but the sun never stops rotating and there is going to be an August 2010 where hope springs eternal. Let’s see what we can do without the south juggernauts on our schedule again. I just think firing a coach based on one disappointing season is a slap in the face to everyone who has worked so hard to bring the program out of the sewer.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
BUT HE'S PEAKED!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!
Just kidding to those saying that. Could definitely be true but damn, not much of a rope for a guy that took over one of the absolute worst programs in D1 football. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I've listed them out before...
So I won’t do so again, but there are many inherent disadvantages that any coach will have at KU football. As much as we might not like it, maybe what Mangino has achieved so far is the most we’ll ever be able to do in that sport.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
I hope not
but it’s certainly possible
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
yeah exactly
and I don’t know that he hasn’t peaked. I just think that he should be given more time to see if he has considering he just last season obtained his highest rated recruting class since being here, that means higher rated players than in the BCS bowl year.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
and one more thing
I doubt MM had anything to do with our offseason marketing campaign. Something tells me he knew we would have the fight of our lives to win the north.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
ok you make some valid points
but my question to you is:
Do you ever think we can catch Texas or OU? Because I don’t.
The schedule is what it is, we have the “easier” schedule for 2 years again starting next year. I don’t think that should be held against what he’s done.
And yes, I am hanging my hat on an Orange Bowl win and we did get it when maybe Missouri should have. That is how big that season was for me. That season could probably give me the confidence in Mangino for 3 more mediocre bowl seasons. That is how big it was to me. It might not be to others and I don’t blame you. But that football season was the most fun and the most I cared about college football ever and it was awesome.
I’m not just behind Mangino because of wins and losses. The recruiting difference we’ve made and the players that we are bringing in now are also part of it. I’m excited by dozens of freshman and sophomores that we have in the program right now and throw in guys like Keeston Terry and Geneo Grissom who aren’t even on campus and I still like what we’ve got going. Do we get Keeston to switch his committment from Nebraska to here without Mangino? I don’t know but I know we did get him to switch it with Mangino here so I’ll take what I know.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
You're right we will never catch Texas or OU.
Just like certain schools will never top us in basketball. But it is sad that we have to look forward to years that our schedule is down. At some point it would be nice to think we stand a chance against some of the upper tier teams and can prove that we are an actual football school that doesn’t have to play a creampuff schedule to go to a decent bowl game.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
i definitely agree
and I actually did think we stood a chance against the upper tier teams this season. But obviously that was not the case. I think this year really showed us what the difference between 3 star recruits and 4 and 5 star recruits are. Every year we get better and better recruits, though.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
It's more than just 3 star vs 4/5 star
It’s depth.
We have a few 4 star kids and some 3 star kids we’ve coached up.
Texas and OU have 100 4 star kids.
Sawin' wood
exactly
playing field is not level in college football but Mangino has managed to close that huge gap significantly compared to where it was.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
But are they really "better"???
We also saw what 2,3 or even 0 star players can do in 2007. The fact of the matter is, those ratings are FAR from a science. A lot (too much, IMO) of the perceived value various high school players have comes from the perceived pedigree of the coaches that are recruiting them.
So after the Orange Bowl win and the Head Coach of the Year trophy, Mangino’s eye for talent was a lot more respected by places like Rivals, and therefore those players may have gotten a bump in their ratings that wasn’t actually deserved.
Think about how often players turn into busts from the NFL or NBA draft. Hell, think about how few DON’T turn out to be busts from the MLB draft! And these are groups that are doing talent evaluation with millions of dollars on the line. When Rivals misses on a player, what real negative repercussions do they feel?
Clearly, Opurum, McDougald, and Tharp are players that have shown good potential for the coming years. But other than that, what do we have?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
definitely
The fact of the matter is, those ratings are FAR from a science
Couldn’t agree more.
What we do know, though, is in the past Mangino has been good with developing the talent that didn’t get a high star rating, i.e: Talib, McClinton, Collins, Henry, Reesing, etc, etc.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
great sig btw
always love that clip during games
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
5 wins in the current year, but
Also a #6 ranking in Big 12 2010 recruiting (the highest amongst any Big 12 North school).
Yes, before this mess, we had out-recruited half the conference including NU, MU, KSU.
We’ve got more verbals from 4* kids than ever before.
Unfortunately, some just can’t look past the current season and the “what have you done for me lately” attitude.
Sawin' wood
by Rivethead on Nov 18, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's how we do it for basketball and that's how the corn handles their football program.
Having high expectations for your program, including the head coach, puts pressure on the players to perform to those expectations. As long as the expectations are not ridiculous, I think it is good for the program as a whole. I doubt the fans or players of OU are happy with their season, including Stoops. It’s nice, but it doesn’t get me too excited just to make it make it to a meaningless bowl.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
One of our best alums
Kevin Harlan just said a good thing: “Let’s wait and see what happens on this thing before we get too crazy.”
Thank you. I’m not blaming us because we are fans and we can all talk about this crap because it isn’t our job. But the media seems to be running with every rumor like it’s fact and it’s making this worse than it (potentially) is. I just want some facts, I guess.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 11:30 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
IF…Lew Perkins and Mark Mangino have an ongoing tense relationship.
Really, Denver? This seems like a pretty safe bet to me at this point. Mangino did come out and say he didn’t have the support of people in the department, and Perkins is the one that leaked information about the meetings and impending investigation to the press…
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions
it can certainly be a conclusion one might draw...
but it isn’t something we have as fact.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I asked this last night, but I'll ask it again here...
Can anyone at this point come up with a scenario where Mangino remains the coach and this all works itself out? At the very least, you have to believe Mangino now knows he has an AD breathing down his neck and watching his every move.
No matter how great a coach Mangino is, can he succeed in that kind of environment?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions
I've been thinking about this too
that’s why I’m so angry about the situation. It’s almost like Lew has turned it into a foregone conclusion before “the investigation” even happens. Makes me wonder, is this going to be a fair investigation?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
No. There is no scenario that I can think of where we will be back to business as usual.
If Mangino stays, he’s always looking over his shoulder waiting for the next Lew Perkins blindside.
If he goes, then the next coach to come in is always going to be looking over his shoulder waiting for the Lew Perkins bindside.
Lew just set a precendent.
Sawin' wood
Unless...
Of course, something more serious has happened than what’s been reported. Then Perkins has quickly distanced himself, KU Athletics, and the University away from something ugly, and can freely get rid of the guy without scaring most coaching prospects away, because they’d never do something that ugly.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know....
It doesn’t matter if Mangino shot someone. You don’t leak that info to the public an hour before your head coach has to stand at podium in a press conference.
It was, IMHO, a cheap shot.
Now, I’m also of the opinion that Lew didn’t have a choice. He couldn’t keep certain people quiet and choose the timing.
Sawin' wood
Hell no.
Already saw the announcement that the “independent” investigator is an Assistant AD from KU Athletics. I wonder if she’ll find what her boss would like her to find???
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
This is what I've been thinking too
I didn’t agree with the firing to begin with, but now after all of this, we might have to considering the circumstances.
From the outside looking in that certainly seems to be the case...
but lets assume for a moment that this is one isolated player and a host of “anonymous” or otherwise bitter former players.
If it’s found to be a minor isolated incident, the team is perfectly fine with the way things are going, Lew finds everything is fine…do you still have to make a switch?
Suppose Lew comes out and says something like, “I apologize for how it came out…it wasn’t as serious as let on but it was going to be leaked to the media and I felt it best that we put it out in the open”
I know this is a stretch but what if???
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
by Owen Kemp on Nov 18, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
that isn't impossible
and I think that’s how it should happen. So where is KU Lew at?
He hasn’t really been around during this whole thing actually, hmmmmm?
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
that's part of why my example seems so far fetched
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Then it's up to Mangino, IMO
He could choose to forgive and forget, and move on with building his program and his legacy here at KU. Maybe even take this as a learning experience, and learn to change his motivational tactics occasionally to receive better results.
Or, he could get vindictive (“this is about three letters: BCS”) and bitter. Stop pushing himself so hard because, “what does it matter if I don’t have the AD’s support anyways?” Maybe start putting feelers out for another job somewhere (maybe try to build the “next Boise” in the WAC?).
Whichever way he would choose, I think, the fans would follow.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
an interesting scenario...
part of me says the guy is competitive and would want to push harder…another part of me says that he’s getting up there for a guy of his stature and he might say to hell with it.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
If thats the case then yeah I think it'd be ok
But I doubt it, with quotes from parents (gimme a break) saying “we’re not surprised” and all this other stuff, its starting to smell like a long-term problem not just one chest poke, IMO
Wow...
wish I hadn’t been busy this morning…this might be some of the best discussion related to football on this site ever. Too bad it came about for such a crappy reason.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
seriously
has been great discussion, wish we didn’t have to have it.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously
Mangino is toast. Done. And their is some serious sh*t going on in this whole thing.
And if you think otherwise you are all kidding yourself.
This is more than football.
Id bet they fire him before Friday rolls around.
I'll be interested to find out
what “serious” is in this whole thing.
The parking ticket thing, while annoying and not cool at all, is not serious.
What are they going to find as “serious” and “abusive”. That is what I’m very interested to know.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
serious
most of the facts of the “serious” nature will never be made public.
and you would be privy to these facts yourself?
or are you simply speculating.
I’m not calling you out or looking for you to drop anything you don’t want to, I’m just curious.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Within a team of 100 players and 20-30 coaches and support staff
It’s awful hard to keep things private forever.
Sawin' wood
A COACH IN LIMBO, DAY 2
Internet- Yesterday, rumors were flying throughout the webtubes about Kansas Head Football Coach Mark Mangino. Was the man a racist? Has he choked players in the past? Did he force Tweeder to take a shot to play hurt for him? Overwhelmingly, fans seemed to be siding with the man that had overhauled the Athletic Department, achieving unprecedented heights of profitability, fundraising, and brand recognition throughout the country, over the coach that has lost 5 in a row with a series of uninspiring performances.
In a dramatic reversal, however, today the general consensus seems to have shifted- after all, football coaches are supposed to be tough! It’s a tough man’s game! If things were really this bad all along, why were so many players willing to stay and play through it? Most of the negative quotes from non-anonymous sources seemed to be coming from players that were disappointing in their on-field performance.
Suddenly, Lew Perkins is losing a dramatic PR battle that he chose to create. Will this gamble pay off? Or has irreparable damage been done to Kansas Football?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:30 PM CST reply actions
as Rodd Teesing...
he will know what to do
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Did he force Tweeder to take a shot to play hurt for him?
So awesome, thank you for that
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah its changing now that "experts" are commentating
Weiner news media people (Mizzou grads) went nutts about it. Now thats it gaining national exposure people are shifting. Todd McShay on sports center said “if all this was was a poke in the chest then give me a break. If he is laughing in a walkthrough he should be punished”
a few
I do have SOME facts. Not a ton. I also have a lot of factual stories from people close to the program. Stories that i have heard over the past several years. I dont have a ton of info from THIS season but its quite obvious to me that something serious has been taking place and the team is not responding well. Im not privy to what broke the camels back but i have a few hunches concerning that.
Let me keep digging before i give out too much here. I dont want to make anyone mad.
fair enough...
feel free to let us in on anything once you think you can…and we’ll take it for what it’s worth.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
yeah
I get nervous throwing certain things out there for fear that i wont get this info anymore if i abuse it.
Just know that some of the accusations and stories and hearsay that is out there…might just be factual.
understandable...
it’s definitely toeing a line
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
TBH I've been buddies with a few kids on the team
And let me just say, Mangino can be a bit of a hot head. Not sure if its necessary for me to elaborate, some of the stories are pretty funny like Brad Debeux describing Mangino’s face when he gets upset. Others are…well…its football right.
I think this is the longest
mid-day non OGT that hasn’t been hyjacked…
Once KC shows up though, it’s game over.
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
I'm lurking.
I have been reading the entire thing in live time as you guys go. Very good stuff. Carry on.
lol can't have a CKC without KC - Nicholai Khabibulin (LN21)
by Andy Edwards on Nov 18, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Adding fuel to the fire...
mizzourahblog has a screen cap of Joc Crawford’s twitter from yesterday. Not sure what it’s worth (another guy that couldn’t cut it seems pissed off), but the comments about Jake Sharp are interesting:
Mangino seems to love Sharp in the media- always talking about how hard he works, how he’s a “program guy,” etc. If Sharp was ready to quit last year, that’s just crazy.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 12:58 PM CST reply actions
If I recall though it sure took Sharp a little while to really break in last season. They pretty much tried everyone but him through the first four games. He blew up against ISU and seemed to secure the job from there. Crawford and Quigley were given plenty of opportunities to win that job it seemed.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
JoCra
had a couple nice runs in the USF game but wasn’t able to get it going after that.
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
What the hell is BJ Rains doing throwing Mangino under the bus
According to the tweets. I had J101 with that guy haha, if I remember correctly, in his group.
ALso interesting that Crawford mentions Lew and says “I love that guy.” Seems like Lew may have been holding the hand of some of these guys when Mangino got on em.
Can I just ask...
…when did our Athletic Department become the University’s second drama department?
I’m just tired of this shit.
Great discussion. Keep it going.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 1:40 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't see
how Mangino can continue with all of this having happened. It’s obvious (to me, anyway) that Lew wants him gone, and is prepared to short-circuit his own standing as AD-Extraordinaire to do it. Can you imagine a conversation between these two guys that doesn’t involve security at this point? I can’t really.
Since the new chancellor is unlikely to fire Lew, I’ve gotta think Mangino is gone, if not now, then at the end of the year. It’s sad. Very, very sad.
I love how two years ago, MM’s tough, hard-nosed style was “a throwback to the good ol’ days” and “refreshing to see on campus,” but now, since we’re losing, he’s a thuggish jerk who can’t get through to players any more. As Sir Charles Barkley once said, “winning is a deodorant that covers up a lot of stink.” That, I believe, is what we have here, and we have it in spades. Very annoying.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
Not sure how or if this applies but I heard it on the radio this morning at it seemed appropriate to the current situation...
“Everyone has a gameplan until they get hit”
-Mike Tyson
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
This is not KU's year
I just had a sudden jolt of doom-and-gloom pessimism. Turf war fights between players. A football program built up with a “History Awaits” campaign that disintegrates before our eyes. Our head coach fighting rumors, controversy, and his own AD. And now a close, ugly victory for our supposedly unbeatable basketball team.
Are we gonna struggle to make the tourney this year?
joking right?
I need sarcasm font for that one
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
gotta be
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
It's about time for a driveway news conference.
If we’re lucky Perkins or Mangino will have press conference held in their driveway in order to explain the dirty details of what is actually going on.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
by Hubin311 on Nov 18, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
saying that Lew
“is trying to crush him like a (very portly) dove”
"He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it felt...he lives vicariously...through himself- He is the most interesting man in the world"
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 18, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
I don't care what happens...
so long as it doesn’t screw up the basketball coaching situation this time….
Although if Perkins held a press conference in his driveway claiming Mangino crushed him like a dove…I think I would believe him. Al Bohl…not so much.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I think Bohl meant to say
“Roy tried to get Mark to sit on me and crush me like a dove”
"He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it felt...he lives vicariously...through himself- He is the most interesting man in the world"
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 18, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
Lew could say
“Mark tried to consume me like a box of Dove bars.”
by JayhawkTom on Nov 18, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
What about...
…a constant video feed of a door Lew and/or Mangino could potentially exit or enter on their way to or from some uber important meeting, or maybe just lunch, at any time?
Oh, the suspense.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
oh shit!!!!
somebody local act quickly…we need this done yesterday. The door was epic last year during the Calipari saga…this could significantly boost our standing in the world. Bensa? KC? KUGrad? anyone local, find a door!!!
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
no you didn't!!!
kind a blurry but I’m sure KUGrad can photoshop that thing up
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
This thread...
…is full of win, and is actually making me laugh despite the circumstances.
Aaaaand I just realized we’re as much a drama factory as Kentucky. Shit.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
THIS JUST IN......
Mangino spotted in front of the door with box of belongings
by jco8394 on Nov 18, 2009 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
As fans we can pretend that the Big Mangino is gonna be gone soon.
If he is not gone it seems that is going to take awhile for this to blow over in order to refocus on having a winning program. If he goes who would you like to see fill those shoes?
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
dream list or realistic??
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Mostly realistic.
Cause I don’t think Bill Self is willing to be a two sport coach.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
let's hear who you got first...
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
mine
Patterson TCU
Strong at Florida
Kelly at Cincy
IF any of those 3 would even entertain us.
I have already heard unfortunate rumors about Turner Gill
I sure hope not.
Turner Gill is a helluva coach
I have no idea what about his resume would strike you as a red flag.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 18, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
Check his record this year.
Possible one-year wonder (like MM???)
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
It's possible
but the guy made it happen at Buffalo. Even the 5-7 record two years ago was damn impressive. Giving him the reigns of a Big 12 program would be risky, for sure, but if you’re really looking to replace MM coming off a pretty disappointing season, I’d say the guys listed above aren’t going to be interested. Why the hell would they be?
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 18, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Let's get Bill Cowher!
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
Not sure I just started thinking about it.
Would we go after an established coach or an up and comer? I’m assuming our program would still have to go after an up and comer.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
Just seems like Lew would be the type to go after someone established...
I guess it depends on the definition of that though. I would hate to see a relative no name who was a “hot” coordinator or something.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
If it was someone established
it would have to be someone from a mid-major, right? Can’t be that many established, reasonably successful BCS coaches who would want to come to Kansas.
well yes an established Mid Major would be my assumption at best...
of course places like TCU, Boise State etc are pretty damn good “mid majors”
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
The only name I can come up with is Clint Bowen
I know most of y’all hate him. But the kid has put in 10 years in the program already and is a solid recruiter. And Kansas ties are important (to me anyway).
Anyone else….as soon as they have a hint of success they’ll be gone to a football or multi-sport school. And we’ll be back to square #1 (again).
Sawin' wood
Clint
Basically Bowen recruited almost all of our top players we have right now.
Ummm,
are you TRYING to make my head explode?
Do you think it would be pretty?
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
just cause you don't like
his play calling doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be a good coach. Just saying.
He is pretty young still, though, so probably a risk at this point.
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
I knows
but I’ve made my case on Clint. I’ve got to stick by my guns. I mean hey, it’s in my sig…
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
I wouldn't be upset with that hire...
I’d be a little concerned in terms of the x’s and o’s but the guy has charisma and is good with players. Not in a Terry Allen way where the players run the program but more in a motivate you and push you type of way.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
If Bowen could hire some A+++ coordinators, then maybe it would be so bad.
But most of y’all still hate him (hear that labbadabba?)
Sawin' wood
No. Are you serious?
Keep him at D Coordinator fine. But the way our D has played this season and last there is no way he is head coach.
So who do you have?
And remember, we’re trying to build a program here, not just be a stepping stone to another gig.
Sawin' wood
that's my concern as well...
Bowen is young, players like him…he’d probably keep the staff intact and he’d probably be around for a long time. This staff is pretty damn good that we have right now despite the perception at times.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
seems like a good candidate for "interim"
with “interim” actually meaning “here’s your chance to show us you can be HC, but if not you better hope the new guy likes you”
Blank
I thought the here is your chance to show us what you can do
thinking could be applied to his attempt at D Coordinator. He has gotten better and the D has improved, but giving up the points we have the past few years doesn’t scream head coach.
Keep him at Coordinator and let him keep improving with that and recruiting well. For head coach bring in someone offensive minded who can help fix our O and can use the young talent at QB, RB, WR, young lineman etc, and let Bowen stay at D Coordinator. Thats what I’d do and I’m smarter than I’ll you so whatsup? Hehe. JK. But seriously thats what I’d do
I'd love Kansas ties too
And Bowen has ben a great recruiter
by I need more Esteban on Nov 18, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Patterson might come here.
I think he would prefer the putty tats, but he might come here. The thing about mid major coaches is guessing how well they will perform against big twelve competition. I think I would look at how well they recruit. Self’s ability to recruit goes as far, if not further than his ability to coach. Although recruiting to KU B-ball is completely different than recruiting for football, but our facilities are much better then they used to be.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
Disagree on Patterson
He just turned down KState last year. Now he has a badass team that’s one KU upset on Saturday (dare to dream!) from being in the National Championship game. Why would he turn down them but not us, considering he has KState ties?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe too good...
Going from a 4th ranked TCU program to a down-in-the-dumps KU team in a second-rate conference seems like a lateral move at best.
I'd agree....
right now TCU is a damn good job…that school is about to become a big thorn in our sides in terms of recruiting the state of Texas.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I'm interpreting your post to mean
Patterson is on the phone right now to every 2010 verbal we have right now.
“Son, the situation in Lawrence is a disaster. You need to come play down here in Ft. Worth…..”
Sawin' wood
Well the slant just came out with a pretty damning report...
quotes from both sides of the deal, but also concrete examples of the verbal abuse…not looking good.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Personal attacks on players attacking family problems, family members etc. Also personal public attacks on assistant coaches.
Quotes from both sides though as I said. Nick Reid and Tony Stubbs thought he wasn’t out of line and Kansas football needed it.
Dexton Fields and Antwan Nwabusi didn’t agree with the way he treated people
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I would back up the sentiment regarding the assistant coaches...
I know for instance that this year Tom Sims our new defensive line coach almost didn’t make it to the first game.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
why
are you saying that he almost quit because he was fed up or he had some personal issue that prevented him from being there and Mangino gave him shit about it.
"He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it felt...he lives vicariously...through himself- He is the most interesting man in the world"
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 18, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
not sure exactly how it transpired...
but he nearly left.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Rumor I heard was
he got his ass chewed by Mangino so bad that it pissed him off to the point of damn near packing his bags.
Sawin' wood
by Rivethead on Nov 18, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Mangino
does personal berating and tirades to people. he gets in faces and provokes a fight.
He says horrible things and makes everyone feel like a P.O.S.
He fires coaches left and right and then has them come back. But he does all of it in a very public way. In front of everyone. Very embarrassing and i dunno the word.
by bkmhoxx on Nov 18, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There's not a camera phone big enough, my friend.
by knayte on Nov 18, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and
Anthony Collins left because of it and Gordon
not to mention Coach Collins
pretty much anyone that left that team left because they couldnt take it anymore
And here I thought
Crawford left the team because he ran over another player with his SUV.
Sawin' wood
by Rivethead on Nov 18, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m sure that had something to do with it. Crawford probably saw the writing on the wall and realized he wouldn’t be seeing the field anytime soon.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
exactly
thats exactly right. These guys know that if you do one single thing wrong or get in Manginos doghouse, you will never play again and he will use you like a witch hunt.
One single thing?
Crawford broke numerous team rules. All in the same day/night, from what I’ve heard.
Sawin' wood
I think Crawford is probably a bad example...
it’s a shame, but he deserved a short leash and messed it up.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
but there are others on the team...
buried on the depth chart for the wrong reasons.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
didn't Collins and Gordon turn pro?
Is that just speculation or do you know something?
"He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it felt...he lives vicariously...through himself- He is the most interesting man in the world"
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 18, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
they did turn pro but they would have liked to stay.
And this isnt first hand knowledge. Its via some older players that played with them.
So yeah. I guess i cant put my life on those comments.
No
Collins could not have stayed. It was pretty well know that his family was in some dire financial straights. He needed an NFL salary to help the family.
“Momma’s gotta eat” nickname had some truth to it.
Sawin' wood
I’ll say this…shortly after the award presentation that Collins, Talib and Mangino attended prior to the Orange Bowl I believe. Collins was still very much considering a return.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I thought his decision was in part
based upon whether or not Talib would make the jump…
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
He did say that was part of it. Not all of it though.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Collins actually wanted to come back...
and Mangino was thrilled. But told him that he’d be expecting him to be a leader, set examples, wouldn’t put up with his bullshit, etc….
This one was actually a 50/50 case. Mangino didn’t need to be such a dick to him about it, but if Collins weren’t so inherently lazy, it’s not like he couldn’t have stuck it out.
There are plenty of examples, but Collins isn’t quite as one-sided as many others.
by hiphopopotamus on Nov 18, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
So just a sidenote...
does anyone think that if Mangino is gonzo…he might go kill Jason Whitlock on his way out of town? I mean if everyone already thinks you are a loose cannon why not?
I can see it now…“how’s my weight affecting you now Whitless!!!”
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
sweet Jesus, I hope you're on to something
someone needs to take that puffy douche to task and leave him whimpering for a sippee cup of Gates’ BBQW sauce.
A fight between those two would last about a minute and a half
before they’d both run out of breath or one of them had a heart attack.
What a strange column that was.
That still goes down as one of the more
entertaining news conferences I can remember…
Me no likey Clint Bowen.
I haven't seen it....
but some are saying that Crawford’s twitter account is going nuts with info right now
I'll try to piece some of it together
He seems to be in an extended conversation with someone named jack nealy:
my man I wouldna have gone to ku if I knew mangino was a dick, and as disrespectful as he was. Hard coaching. That shit must have flew out the window after u left maybe when he felt more secure with his job. But there’s a diff btween hard coaching and making sure your players get the discipline they need. Talking dwn on us,talking about our personal lives, throwing where we come from n our faces and making us feel bad emotionally is wrong.not only are we football players we are human beings who has feelings too.
yes we are stereotyped as ppl who are suppose to b tough, but we have emotions and words do hurt. Especially when ur hitting on personal things. another thing that dick has a problem with doing is thinking that he’s untouchable. He shoves ppl get in the face as though he wants to fight you. Many of us have kept our composure and not blow up in his face but he tries to provoke players he dnt like. So he can suspend or kick em out. I love ku would have loved to finish my college career there but I refuse to play for someone as disrespectful as him.that’s not good coaching my friend.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry should have quoted that
I dunno- it’s still the rantings of a guy that got kicked off the team for nearly killing a teammate with his SUV.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
just an FYI...
Ben Leuken came forward to the team and coaches saying it was his fault because he was drinking and jumped on the hood of the car. A shame on both ends in my opinion how that turned out but it wasn’t Crawford mowing down a teammate in his car.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Little more from Joc:
if I released the names of all players that are wanting. To transfer now and askin me how can they get out of there ppl would go crazy. the reason nobody said anything is because ppl like me are afraid of being black balled.or taking that risk of never playing agan
It really does sound like Bud Kilmer, doesn’t it?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
WE HAS FEELINGS!!!!!!
"The field mouse is fast but the owl sees at night"- Ricky Bobby's belligerent Granddaddy
just heard
the Texas fight song and fake crowd noise is blasting from memorial stadium right now. Im sure practice is a lot of fun.
So...
spoke to a former player…specific example he gave was a player who’s dad had alcohol troubles and Coach Mangino blew up at him telling him he’d never amount to anything and end up just like his alcoholic father. Says there are worse stories but this was the first one he remembers after arriving on campus in ’04. Made an impression.
He was emphatic that he never saw any sort of physical abuse and does not consider a poke to the chest or grabbing the face mask as such, but the verbal was extremely over the top. Demotivating and players struggle to play for him at times. Also believes it’s a big reason for some of the assistant coaching departures.
Doesn’t know the details surrounding Arist Wright but knows they did “get into it.”
He did go onto say that he has no idea how this thing ends up. Says Coach Mangino has made a whole lot of people angry by completely disrespecting them but at the same time he cannot ignore the fact that he’s been successful with the Jayhawks.
Doesn’t believe he has lost the current team. Many still support him that play for him but there are also many that are no longer supportive at all. Seems like we might have an answer to our 5 game losing streak.
Sounds to me like there are two camps right now and one is being pretty vocal. The stories that are trickling out aren’t the best but it’s at least somewhat reassuring that the guy isn’t going around pulling a Woody Hayes. Now someone somewhere is going to have to make the call on where to draw the line…cue the door.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
by Owen Kemp on Nov 18, 2009 5:24 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
perfect
I have heard all those things and a bit more, including the treatment of his coaches. Same things. Same results. Although i DO think that something happened this year that really broke the camels back and i think it has to be physical. Not sure if the details will ever fully come out. We shall see. I did hear about a fight/scurmish while getting on a charter flight before the Colorado game in which coaches had to pull Mangino off of a player. Has our team showed up since that day?
And i see NO way on Gods green earth that he can stay here now. I still think there is a decent chance he is gone tomorrow or Friday. And i think Bowen gets the interim job and we beat Mizzou and go to a bowl.
I continue to hear...
nothing physical occurred. It may have, but until I hear otherwise I’m going to avoid jumping to that conclusion.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
to me
it doesnt even matter.
Mental abuse is waaay worse than physical abuse. It lasts forever.
don't disagree with you at all...
yelling and screaming in a constructive way intended to teach, motivate or whatever is fine. When you are doing it just to break someone down, that becomes a problem.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Agree with this.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Seriously, at this point...
…I just want this whole debacle/fiasco/whathaveyou to be over. I was fed up enough with the fights between the football and basketball teams. I’m tired of hearing negative news about something (athletics) that is supposed to be about unifying everyone at the University, not dividing it.
Christ.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm still unified...aren't you...
whatever is decided I’ll still be backing the Jayhawks…I’m not divided on that in the least. This may be an ugly moment but it doesn’t change the fact that I want the Kansas Jayhawks to be successful in as many ways possible.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Definitely agree about support...
But wouldn’t it be nice to get out of the national headlines for negative things for a few years?
Off the top of my head, I can’t really think of any school that’s been completely free of ugly incidents at some point or another. And a lot of KU stuff hasn’t really been that big a deal at all, IMO. But it would be nice for things to just kind of hum along for a while, you know?
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
I agree it hasn't been that bad...
…as we haven’t had a Final Four vacated or had people arrested (well, for a violent crime, anyway) but it is just damn embarrassing.
And Denver, yeah, I am still behind the Jayhawks. Hell, I’m still behind Todd and the other football seniors who have struggled lately. I just want the drama to be over so we can actually focus on being Jayhawks, that’s all.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
Hopefully it's like the Hollywood motto
that any news is good news. Come to KU where there is no shortage of national headlines.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
We're NOT going to a bowl game.
Please, for your own mental health, get that out of your head.
Even if we beat MU….we’re 6-6, just like 2006 (only this time we have meg baggage…players being run over by players, fights with bball team, an abusive coach, a smear campaign, an AD that threw his coach to the wolves……what bowl comittee is going to touch that?).
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
In other news
is there some way we can get rid of these f’ing K-state ads on the RCT Homepage…wtf!?!?
ad block plus
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
My latest
Ok. Here goes.
As i mentioned before, Mangino is done. At this point it appears he will coach this weekend and i would expect something to happen officially on Monday or Tuesday. He wont be the coach next weekend at Arrowhead.
The short list
Gary Patterson – TCU
Brian Kelly – Cincinnati
Skip Holtz – East Carolina
Turner Gill – Buffalo
Will any of these guys listen to an offer?
Thats to be determined, but i will say that they are very intrigued by Turner Gill.
He would be the only black head coach in the league, hes a high energy coach, players love him and he can recruit like no other. Him being a Nebraska alum would seem like a hurdle to me but im not him.
Im not givin up my sources. You can call BS on all this or take it as information. It really doesnt matter in the long run because what will happen will happen anyway. I have a few more things that i found interesting as well. Maybe more later.
when you say "short list"
is that from your source or is that part speculation on your part. Just wasn’t clear from the post.
Only concern I would have in regards to Gill is if he spends a few years here, does well and for some reason Pelini get’s run.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
well
i guessed my guesses earlier (minus Gill as he was a rumor i was emailed)
but it was confirmed to me that my list was correct with Holtz added in.
It was a proud moment. Although making a short list at this point in this season for a program like Kansas wasnt exactly rocket science.
(and i dont know that they have even begun to contact any of these coaches yet)
And i agree with you on Gill. Will he be able to turn down his dream job? Or does it matter if we get 5-8 good years out of him and he leaves to go north? I dunno.
Maybe he'd love to come back and stick up their ass after he was passed over?
Surprised this list didn’t include UConn’s head coach.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Would they come?
Patterson- No
Kelly- No
Holtz- Probably, but what has he done besides find Chris Johnson?
Gill- Possibly, but is one winning season (even at a place like Buffalo) enough?
I’m really starting to wonder if Charlie Strong has some skeletons in his closet. The guy has been an absolutely dynamite defensive coordinator for a long time now. He has amazing connections to the Florida recruiting scene. But he can’t even seem to get on these short-lists. I know a lot of the southern schools don’t like the fact that he has a white wife, but I would sincerely hope that wouldn’t matter at a place like KU.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
I have a hard time believing Patterson would have any interest as well. Not quite sold on Gill either. Kind of the flavor of the month last year.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Yeah Buffalo is horrible this season
Would need a few consistent years from the fishman to warm up to him coming here.
Granted Buffalo has to be...
VERY difficult to recruit to
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
True
And he has made great strides to improve that program, not taking anything away from the job he did. Just not sure if he is ready to take on a Big12 team.
I was always under the impression he made a deal with NU that should Bo Pewienie fail Gill will step in and take the job.
Husker faithful would go nutts. Gill was sick. That’d be like Danny Manning being a coach on our hoops team or something.
Gill
is still thought to be the next great thing by many. He can recruit anyone evidently. I dunno. Just going off some of the positives that were stated to me.
He's a f*cking Husker!!!!!
No way would I support that. Sorry. Bugeaters suck. All of them.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
I keep getting job interviews but don't land them
Sometimes thats life. I’m the new Charlie Strong.
I still think we should get Tommy Tuberville. He gets another shot at a BCS conference school, young talent, and the North will always be winnable (compared to the gauntlet that is the south).
Really I know everyone keeps saying why would a coach come here (fans, AD, bball school reasons). But here are a few reasons you could lure a coach:
-Good recruiting classes of late, young talent to work with.
-Offense losing its skill players which sucks, but means easier for you to implement your system and not deal with guys stuck in their ways.
- Lew will fight for you. Shit look how he got us the Orange Bowl. Magic Man.
-If you field a good team you can win the North. Every year. ALways have a shot.
-BRAND NEW facilities, stadium gettins some upgrades. Always helps.
-Lawrence KS is THA SHIT
- Your players will play their hearts out for you if you show them a small amount of compassion and care after their experience with their last coach.
-I’ll post more if I need to.
I'd be good with Tuberville
Just worry about whether he’d use us as a stepping stone. If we could get a contract like RichRod had at WVU where he’d have to pay an arm and a leg to leave, then that would be a great hire.
Doubtful, though.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, in some cases though
If it was a “stepping stone” and he left for a stronger program it’d likely mean he won a bunch of games and proved he was “back.” Then we can hire an up and comer or whatever later with a lot of talent and the program looks cooler cuz he coached there.
Or maybe another job better than this one doesn’t come around a while, he builds KU into a North heavyweight, wants to go head to head with Texas and OU like Snyder did at KSU and stays. Who knows?
More on Holtz
- Was demoted from OC to Quarterbacks coach by his own father at South Carolina. Ouch.
- Inherited Chris Johnson, didn’t recruit him.
- D-1 record of 29-21, and 1-2 in bowl games
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that's my biggest problem with him too
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
I don't want anyone related to Lou Holtz coaching our team
Lou “the screw” Houltz is why I can’t watch college football coverage on ESPN. I equally dislike Mark May but yeah… then the screw be round here telling ush that kanshash ish a good team(sh)
Really?
I’m surprised that people are so dismissive of the Holtz lineage. He may not be a great commentator (Lou), but he’s got football smarts (and quite a track record that some high-profile coaches couldn’t follow in his footsteps) and is grounded like not many in today’s game, and I would expect the same from Skip.
I realize Skip’s untested and would be a risk to go back to ND, but I’m still intrigued by the genetics.
Blank
I was mostly joking
Not taking anything from Holtz who was a great coach. The commentating just irks me beyond belief. I don’t mind Herbstreet, Desmond “PACKERS SUPERBOWL MVP GET UP” Howard and etc, but Holtz and May are the devil (in terms of commentators).
Those coaches are also dealing with a different landscape than Lou was.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
How about?
Stealing Venables from OU or what about Houston’s new head coach, maybe risky, but could could also have some great rewards.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
How about Kevin Sumlin?
I’m not too familiar with which coaches would actually be willing to move, but he’s done pretty well his first two years in Houston. Former assistant to Stoops, has Big 12 ties.
I dunno, just throwing out names.
Insanity is just a state of mind.
GALE SAYERS will pick the next KU head coach.
You want an inside scoop? Follow Gale around.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
What about Chris Peterson?
He seems to be the real power behind the creation of the Boise program, and if you can do that, you can do anything. Plus, it would piss off CU fans forever knowing we got the right guy, while they were stuck with the doofus. I would enjoy that.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:26 PM CST reply actions
We might lose Slam if that happened.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 18, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions
Psssh
What basketball team is he going to cheer for then? Colorado? BWAHAHAHA!
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They play basketball at Colorado?
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
another good one.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
and Colorado is truly stuck with the ManBoobs because
that athletic department is reportedly so cash-hung that they may very well just swallow his awful performance, recruiting, and eroding fan base because they can’t afford to buy him out.
Boise isn’t all Peterson’s doing, and I get that you’re not implying that KG, and it wasn’t all Hawkins. Dirk Koetter had a good run there before bolting to Arizona State and handing it over to Mr. Go Play Intramurals, Brother
True
Really, the development of something as big as a football program can never be attributed to one single person. But he’s shown a good eye for talent, an ability to recruit west coast kids to spend their college years in Idaho (!), the ability to develop talent, etc.
Also seems to have a very even-keeled temperament, which would likely be a bonus given the current situation.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:35 PM CST up reply actions
That'd be cool
But I have two responses.
1. Would our field be turned blue (not sure if I’m against this…) with red endzones. That’d look sweet.
2. Would he leave? He has a pretty strong shot every year at a BCS bowl at Boise these days and a dangerous ass team.
I think...
We should just make the field a gigantic Jayhawk. I’m talking full field, baby. Then plain endzones.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
only...
If the goal posts on each end are John Brown’s arms up in the air…
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 18, 2009 10:36 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
he is probably less likely after....
watching his old boss struggle at CU…probably a pretty convincing example of the grass not always being greener.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Man this sucks either way.
I’m a PhD student @ KU and long time lurker here. Before I got here (2007) I never gave KU football more than a glance over, if that. In the three years I’ve been here Mangino has turned this program around. Whether or not that was due to a poor schedule in 2007 or great recruiting I don’t know, but I do believe he is a high quality coach. We’re in the national spotlight on a regular basis, get games in primetime, and are respected.
I have a hard time drawing my line in the sand without knowing the full story, but I’ll tell you what, I think it’s bullshit that this comes out when we are having a horrible season. It screams “sleazy” to me; if we were 7-3 or 8-2 there’s no way in hell this would get out. Whomever leaked this story or decided that the time was now simply because we’re having a shit season isn’t much of a good person.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Nov 18, 2009 9:01 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I agree that the timing is crappy and that Lew is ambushing Mangino a bit,
but if these stories are true that he’s berating players, taunting them about diseased family members, etc., then it was bound to boil over sooner or later. It appears that it was just a matter of time, and 2008 wasn’t bad enough but 2009 was.
Blank
welcome Dan...
not sure if you were on campus today or not but if you check out the UDK at all there is an article in which they have a couple quotes from Arist Wrights father. Says he told him to wait till the end of the season to bring things up, and he just wants him to make it through the next two games healthy and go from there.
However it came about something must have happened that made Wright feel the need to come forward against the advice of his own family. Not sure what the deal is if it was Wright, Lew someone threatening to leak it but I’d agree the timing is very poor.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
It's definitely a crappy situation.
Before this stuff came out, there was some rumblings amongst the KU faithful that he should go simply for on-field reasons- that he’s peaked as a coach, will never take us any further, etc. I was firmly AGAINST that camp. I thought, at the bare minimum, the guy deserved the chance to make some adjustments to his coaching staff to see if the problem areas led to him, or to his staff. But now I don’t know what to think. Part of me thinks that if he is so tyrannical, even if nothing specifically “that bad” has occurred, that personality type will hold the program back from reaching new heights.
On the other hand, I know Mangino is a pretty smart guy, and if he could learn to better channel his anger, he could create a better work environment for his players and his staff, which could improve things. I’m not saying he should stop being tough on kids and pushing them to reach the potential he sees in them at all- I’m just saying stop talking about players’ families, how ghetto the areas are that they came from, stop screaming at the professionals on your staff, etc.
And welcome! Don’t be a stranger!
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 18, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
great comment...
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
a very very thick file
I was told that if people could see the size of Manginos file (the written complaints and issues) that we would all more than likely be in complete awe. And a LOT of stuff doesnt even go into his file. This was several years in building and i think with the kids and ex-players and parents putting on the heat and coming out with information and complaints, coupled with the losing season and yeah. It has come to a head.
And guys seriously, look at this team. We have a lot of talent. What has been happening since the Colorado game is extremely bizarre. Todd isnt even close to “right” and its not an injury. I think there is some serious struggles going on with this team. I just think all these things pretty much have put Lew in a place where he had no choice. Thats just my opinion.
Here's a crazy thought...
What if, just maybe, we go down and actually beat Texas in Austin? What kind of wrench would that put in Lew’s plan? I know it’s not very likely, but wouldn’t that just represent a giant middle finger to Lew and all of MM’s naysayers? Then, even if MM leaves after this year, he could still hang his hat on a win over the previously undefeated Longhorns in a primetime Saturday night game.
What can I say? I’m a dreamer…
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
I actually thought the same thing today.
Seriously, what better set up is there? Colt McCoy just tied for most victories in school history, the ’Horns are undefeated and a lock for the conference championship and, if they win out, a lock for the National Championship.
We, on the other hand, have more than deviated from the path of win and will be at all fortunate to sniff the Toilet Bowl this year and will likely not have our current head coach at the helm should that far-flung opportunity arise.
I’m not saying we win, I just know that God/Allah/The Flying Spaghetti Monster has a massive, if somewhat cruelly twisted, sense of humor sometimes.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 19, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
This is really becoming sad to watch...
Parents documenting abuse and Joe Mortensen
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Oy.
Sad is a good word for it. My question is this: how rampant is this style of coaching in the NCAA? Surely, it can’t only be MM that does it this way, right? I’m not condoning it, and certainly there are obvious problems conducting a program in such a manner, but I’d be curious to know if this was the way it was at K-State or OU, where MM was an assistant prior to becoming a head coach at KU.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
Its interesting that
All these players, Mortensen included, have absolutely no problem with some facemask grabs, chest pokes, etc, its the emotional words that they can’t stand. A few cruel words can be warranted in a heated competitive environment like college sports. This many… well its just too much. Seems to be a trend.
Threatening assistants’ jobs in front of the team, telling kids if they don’t play well they’ll go back to the ghetto, rushing kids back from injuries (and lets be honest anyone who has paid attention to the team already knew about this a bit). All these things are pretty bullshit. I personally don’t want this in my program, if its that widespread. Again a little bit of it is understandable, people make mistakes and no one is perfect, especially with the demand to win. But if it is as widespread as it sounds, to me that is unacceptable.
But is it
only unacceptable because we’ve lost 5 in a row? If this has been going on for 2, 3, 4, 6, or all 8 years since MM’s been here, shouldn’t Lew have demanded he put a stop to it a long time ago? Having it all come out now (and possibly costing the guy his job) smacks of “well, now it’s convenient to bring it all up and kick the guy out.” It’s all kinda cheap, seems to me. If the behavior is wrong, it’s wrong no matter whether KU is winning or not. The circumstances (i.e. win/loss record) surrounding it shouldn’t matter.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
I agree its fishy that its coming out now
No argument there. However that seems to be life. Like I mentioned earlier, Indiana put up with Knight’s crap for years. It also seemed convienent that he was let go after an incident when Indiana stopped being dominant.
Easier to point blame when the team starts losing. Would I be more willing to put up with the shiat if we were winning? I’m not sure its a tough question. I’d like to say no but human nature dictates I might be more willing to let it slide. Only a fanatical fan in the end, as we all are.
you're right and wrong, I think
You’re right that this should have come out no matter the record, that wins and losses shouldn’t have anything to do with player abuse.
But there’s a story on Oread Boom Kings that indicates this actually stemmed from a player coming back from a knee injury who was forced into action early and is concerned he is doing significant damage to his knee.
While it’s easy to blame the coach and come up with excuses when we’re losing, the flip side of that coin is that it is incredibly difficult to bring these allegations to light when the team is winning. What if this had happened in ’07? Would Perkins or the athletic department attempted to keep it quiet because we are winning?
It’s a moral question, and one that is intertwined with the win-loss record: Did the win-loss record allow for excuses to be made, or did the win-loss record create an environment where the allegations would be taken seriously?
I don’t have an answer to that question, but I generally am leaning toward the latter.
whoops
That should have been a reply to Bensa.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
there are multiple stories now surfacing...
of players being forced back from injury early. Todd Haselhorst, Jon Cornish, Joe Mortenson…
Cornish actually posted a rather long response on Phog.net…he clearly has a lot of respect for the man and says the end result of the experience was very positive for him. Getting to the end was however very difficult and said Mangino “hated” him.
Also calls out Hereford and Fields for their comments. Says Hereford is bitter and Fields is stupid.
Again, clear that their are two camps in this but more and more even those supporting the guy are saying his behavior was at best mentally draining.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I know Cornish a bit
Or had first hand knowledge as I was good friends with his girlfriend while he played here. He is a bright guy. He was often critical of play-calling and etc, and in 2006 rightfully so. I would take whatever he says seriously.
Also not sure about him saying he was rushed back from injury. He was actually critical the coaches sat him against Baylor saying he was hurt when he said he was fine and wanted to run out the clock on them.
Yeah Herford and Fields comments
really don’t mean anything to me because I can totally see them being bitter about how their senior seasons ended up
by I need more Esteban on Nov 19, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
yep
I agree with you DC.
They couldnt exactly can mangino in years past. They were handcuffed with the money and success that was being generated. This was perfect timing to blow this all up.
and do any of you recall that point in the Nebraska game where if we make that one stop, then we have a chance to take the lead but we gave up a big play?
the facemask....?
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
or the roughing the passer?
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
asking
I actually dont remember. I was honestly asking. BUT
I was told that it was also total blown coverage because a defensive play was not even called.
and why you might ask?
because Mangino was berating his coaches via headset and wouldnt stop yelling and cussing so no play was given. That is a major problem.
it's funny I've always heard Mangino was tough to play for...
but it always seemed I heard more stories of him being abusive to the assistant coaches than actual players. Obviously I figured both went on to an extent but it’s interesting how regularly you always heard of one but not the other until now.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
as far as that play...
can’t remember the situation but we actually did make the stop twice. Committed personal foul penalties and then on the next play Nebraska scored. My guess is you are referring to Jamal Greene’s roughing the passer which on the very next play Helu ran untouched over the right side for a touchdown.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
yeah
I couldnt recall exactly what play they were talking about but they directly related it to the loss. And evidently this argument between Defensive Coordinator and Mangino happened in front of Lew and it wasnt pretty. Again this is heresay because my source wasnt in the room for that convo.
ESPN.com
Has more comments from more players.
At this point, he has to go. Whether this all came to light because of a losing streak or not, IMO, at this point is irrelevant. This has become a national story, and will destroy the program if it isn’t nipped in the bud immediately. Perkins may or may not have orchestrated this all to get “his guy” in place to sell out his new additions to Memorial, but in either case, it has worked.
If you don’t think high school kids out there right now that have been recruited by Kansas aren’t reading these articles on places like ESPN.com, then you’re kidding yourselves.
Mr. Mangino- thank you for everything you have done for the Kansas Football program. I know I will never forget the weekly joy that the 2007 season brought me. You may choose to believe this is a witch hunt caused by a losing streak, and you may be correct. However, I hope you can take this as a learning experience about how to communicate to others as the head of a college football program. If you can, I have no doubt that you’ll get a second chance eventually somewhere, and that you’ll become a great success. Furthermore, please take this opportunity to start living a more healthy lifestyle. Your family and true friends want to see you around for a long, long time.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 19, 2009 8:18 AM CST reply actions
yep...it needs to be done...
done quickly and whatever action is going to be taken moving forward in terms of a coach also needs to be made as quickly as possible. Not sure there is anyway at this point Coach Mangino can recover. I just hope they can find a way to keep our current group intact as far as players and recruits.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
I agree
His goose is cooked, as they say. He’ll be a non-factor in recruiting, and he’s basically a lame-duck, dead-man-walking coach right now as it is. As Hip said on the OBK website, Lew has played this one perfectly, assuming his goal was always to get rid of MM. Tip o’ the cap to you, Lew. Well done (I guess…). Now go out there and get us a home run hire and save your gridiron club own ass at the same time.
Operation 40-0 is a go. Proceed to target.
Don't know why....
but I really get the feeling this thing is going to be resolved in the very near future
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Ferentz?
Obviously requires using a grain of salt the size of our soon-to-be-former head coach, but two members of the KUSports message boards have independently said that Kirk Ferentz is a possibility (ties to UConn and Perkins).
Which makes me think: Is Kansas’ position in the Big XII better than Iowa’s in the Big 10? Sure, competing against Texas, Oklahoma and Nebraska has its clout, but there’s Michigan, tOSU and Wisconsin in the Big 10. And Iowa probably has a better change to win the Big 10 every year than Kansas does the Big XII.
I was really excited at first when I read that, but the more I think about it, the nuttier it sounds.
I think we’d be much better served by announcing a top assistant from somewhere (Florida? Auburn?) is coming right away, to shore up recruiting, than letting it hang until after the bowl season. Like when Pelini was announced at Nebraska but continued in his duties at LSU, even coaching the national championship game.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
Just not sure why Ferentz would want to
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
and I agree...
I think we’ll need to act quickly
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
me neither
But I figured I’d pass on the rumors I’m reading elsewhere.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
no problem...keep em coming...
that’s obviously what a lot of us are using this for. A place to bounce around thoughts, rumors and new information on the issue.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
and...
It got me to start posting around here nonstop instead of just lurking and playing fantasy football! Every cloud has a silver lining.
And personally, I’d be a little sick to my stomach if Skip Holtz is the new coach.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't be to thrilled with a Holtz hire either
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
The thought of Lou slobbering about us
on ESPN doesn’t excite you? :)
by hunter s. royal on Nov 19, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
2 thoughts on Ferentz
My parents and most of my family are Hawkeye alumni, so I’ve always followed that program. While I do think he’s an excellent coach, there’s a couple of things to keep in mind:
1. He’s one of the highest paid coaches in college football. We aren’t going to be able to woo him with $ alone.
2. He has shown a pattern of taking on character risk players that have blown up in his face on several occasions. There are pics online of Iowa players with stacks of thousands of $ in front of them from drug dealing on campus. We don’t need any more of that.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 19, 2009 11:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
both good points
Especially #2. That’s a huge freaking issue.
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
Just to add nothing but more noise to this,
J. Crawford was supposed to be on 810 this morning in the 9 am hour. Can’t stream here at school, but I’ll be listening to it later.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
his tweets have been interesting
Especially when he said he’d love to come back to KU next season if Mangino is gone. Would he even be able to? And would he be worth it? A little lightning to go with Opurum’s thunder?
by DCJayhawk0208 on Nov 19, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
no return for Crawford...
right or wrong, I don’t see how that can happen
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
The guy sucked. He had is chance. He's not a Big 12 RB. Never was.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
i dunno
Crawford had a ridiculous skill set. I think he could be pretty good. He doesnt seem like a bad kid to me when i use the “eye test” and “ear test”.
He doesn't?
Honestly, with his tweets and other stuff this guy comes off as one of those just a little too happy about a situation like this.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
yep...
I do think the guy got a pretty raw deal, but this doesn’t exactly make him look like the bigger person.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
quote
“Are you going to be a lawyer or do you want to become an alcoholic like your Dad?” -Mark Mangino
Out of bounds
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
quote
“If you’re not careful you’ll be watching the game in the stands with your homies. You’ll be back in that neighborhood.” -Mark Mangino
Don't really see anything wrong with this one.
Change your attitude or you won’t succeed.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
again
very racist comment.
“your homies” and “that neighborhood” when used in the wrong context can really be a negative thing.
Disagree
Asians have hommies and neighborhoods.
Hispanics have hommies and neighborhoods.
African Americans have hommies and neighborhoods.
even Caucasians have hommies and neighborhoods.
Hard to prove racism with that comment and even that context.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
well
Those are all races arent they?
White people dont use the word “homies” the way mangino was meaning it.
I would strongly disagree.
maybe you haven't seen Clueless?
Ro-lin with the hom-ies
Blank
by benfunke on Nov 19, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So
it’s just a coincidence that he uses that term with only his black players, then? Not buying it. Don’t really see why he deserves the benefit of the doubt on this, either.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 19, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
So if he told Jake Sharp or Kerry Meier something along the lines of
“If you don’t get it together, get ready for a combine the rest of your life”, that’d be a major problem?
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
so
you are saying that running a combine and working on a farm is equal to living in the hood and dodging bullets? Seriously?
If a guy comes from the hood and fails, where will he most likely end up?
Back in the hood.
If a guy comes from a poor farm and fails, where will he most likely end up?
Being a poor farmer.
I’m not trying to defend his comments a whole lot, but telling a guy that if you fail you will end up where you came from isn’t the worst thing in the world.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
?
Did you grow up on a farm? That isnt “failing” and they arent “poor”.
Yeah, I've lived in a few areas on the other side of Salina.
And yes, they are poor in MOST cases. One person/corporation owns the land and others get to work it for next to nothing or they can work in the local diner that gets 15 customers a day.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
well
Im from Salina and all the farming families i knew, including my own made as much as say a teacher or a policeman. Rich? Not even close. But poor as in ghetto food stamps and very little food in the house? Not even close.
Did you ever head out west to the small towns on the other side of Salina?
Those small 1A schools and 2A schools are full of kids on free lunches and families barely scraping by.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
I can tell you from first hand experience
I was a National Bank Examiner for the US Treasury Dept for 5 years. I’ve been in every National Bank from Cottonwood Falls west to the CO border. From Salina south to the OK border. I’ve reviewed hundreds of ag loan files. I’ve never seen a “rich” farmer. Even those with a lot of assets (usually land value) don’t have strong cash flow.
The implement dealers, on the other hand…….
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
My dad grew up in Cottonwood Falls
I always liked it there. The prairie is beautiful.
Sorry, off topic.
I don't know, I like to think that things started out initially with good intentions, but then we just loused it up. Kind of like intelligence. We have this glorious thing that allowed us to survive for millenia and now we use it to write porn film plots involving pterodactyls. Talk about wasting the gift.
by tequilaprophet on Nov 19, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
Off topic once in a while
is nice. Especially with this zoo going on.
by hunter s. royal on Nov 19, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
quote
‘If you don’t shut up, I’m going to send you back to St. Louis so you can get shot with your homies." -Mark Mangino
Borderline, did the kid have a homedog get shot recently and MM was picking at that?
If yes, then way out of bounds.
Once again, if not I don’t see anything wrong with this. Get your shit together or you won’t succeed.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
its
implied racism.
easily.
meant for motivation, yes
word it differently, most definitely
No. Not easily
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
Here again…there are white people who live in St. Louis too. And they have hommies too. And some of them even get shot.
Hurtful. Definitely.
Racism. That’s a strech. I think we need to be really careful throwing that word around.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
dictionary
The dictionary doesnt get to determine what is racism. And i hate throwing it out there too. Unless it is waranted. And that is why these quotes have been brought to the surface. I have been a basketball coach for 12 years and would NEVER think of using that language. Its just obvious to me what he was meaning by it.
Thats like saying “I know YOUR KIND are lazy and if you dont do what i want and play better then im going to put you back with YOUR PEOPLE to get shot and be a gangsta”. Yes it could be any race, but it wasnt meant to be. It was a white man being an ass to a black kid.
There are some definite racial underpinnings in the language used by Mangino
No matter what, many of the things Mangino said were morally wrong, if he told a recruit from the ozarks of misery that if he doesn’t get his ass in gear, he’s gonna end up back in his ozark trailer house waving a confederate flag with his toothless wives and twelve kids, it would still be wrong, maybe not racism, but certainly wrong.
It’s a matter of respect between players and coaches. If you want them to play like men, treat them like men.
"I'll Be Deep In The Cold, Cold Ground Before I Recognize Missourah!" Abraham Simpson
So if the dictionary doesn't get to define it who does?
Saying “I’m going to send you back to St. Louis so you can get shot with your homies” doesn’t imply a belief that one race is superior to another (the definition of racism).
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. You’re comfortable publicly calling the current head coach of the Kansas Jayhawks a racist. I’m not.
Sawin' wood - damn, blade just broke
Dude.
His brother had just been shot. Save the internet hardass act for some other target.
RODD TEESING, my arch-nemesis! Give us back our TODD, you rapscallion!
by KennyGregoryRockThaCradle on Nov 19, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Dude.
That’s why I asked the question. Or are we not reading today?
If yes, then way out of bounds.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Honestly one of the more troubling things I've read today...
is the forced play of injured players. Cornish with the torn quad. Mort and his ACL, Todd Hasselhorst and his issues, also believe Rivera has a broken foot last year no one ever knew of.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Mangino himself said
“these kids are banged up and have been all year” after the mizzou game crediting their fight and resolve, etc. I don’t know why everyones shocked at the injury thing, its been common knowledge for anyone half paying attention to the team that guys have been playing hurt (and its one reason for the drop off between 07 and 08, 07 our team was remarkably healthy).
Now the REAL issue is if Mangino was forcing kids out there hurt, threatening scholarships if they didn’t etc.
and that appears to be the situation in some cases...
players afraid to lose their scholly’s if they didn’t show up and play despite being hurt. There is one instance of a guy finally saying no I’m done practicing this is too much. took 3 years for him to get back on the right side of things and he was legitimately injured pretty seriously.
I know everyone plays with nagging injuries, Mangino always comments to that as do players…that’s not what I’m referencing.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
This thread
has really devolved from a spirited discussion in which points were tossed all around. Now we’re getting on about what is racism and what isn’t and different people’s interpretations of statements. It’s gotten nuts in here.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 1:15 PM CST reply actions
340 comments before it got there though.
That’s pretty good for the Internet.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
tru dat, good sir.
tru dat.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
And hey
How you been Warden? I haven’t seen you around in a while.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Been good.
Pumped as hell for basketball to start. Busy teaching the youth of tomorrow.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
You?
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Ah man.
My life is a new disaster every 6 months. Have been out of my MIND excited for Jayhawks basketball to return because I feel this year has the potential to be very, very special.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
Everyone has their own little disasters every few months.
That’s why it’s called life.
I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Truf.
It’s just picking a direction for life and staying the course isn’t my strong suit. Especially when everything is constantly failing. A friend of mine told me I wasn’t failing, but rather searching. I think I’ll adopt that as my philosophy then.
I thought you knew that algebra was all razzamatazz. A Globetrotter always saves the good algebra for the final minutes.
by SlamDunkTheFunk on Nov 19, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Sounds like new age philosophy.
Get some crystals and a nice feathered head band and you’re in! (Stay out of the sweat lodges though)
by hunter s. royal on Nov 19, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
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